I hope Debbie (Casual_Cairo) pops in to give us her opinion. Always nice to hear from someone "on the ground."

Agree, sure wish Debbie would pop in and let us know what she's seeing/hearing.

I've been glued to T.V. I really hope things clear up over there. I was really looking forward to traveling and site seeing.

The cruise line will alter the itinerary based on current events. While I agree with 516TP hoping things will "clear up over there" that is not realistic. We are not talking about weather...there has been a drastic change in leadership creating a very unstable situation. I don't think anyone can say where this is heading but for sure it will take many years to get where it is going and my feeling is tourism is not high on the list. I think the only really "safe" travel to the area right now may be cruise travel where they have the option to call on Egypt or not and also you have the option of going to Cairo or not. At least Giza and the pyramids are not in the center and they may just tailor the excursion to areas they know are not involved? I hope it works out and sorry to sound pessimistic but anyone planning on a trip to Egypt in the next year or two simply needs to be aware of what is going on and decide if they are comfortable and flexible enough to deal with it.

Everything is fine today. I was down by the Embassy today and there was loads of police surrounding the Embassy... so I guess it was safe, and as usual the rest of Cairo was safe where I was. Probably not a great weekend to go out and be an "ugly American", but in general it should be fine. I went out today and had NO problems... from Heliopolis to Maadi twice today and back tonight in a normal taxi where there driver went out of his way all the way home to let me know I was safe and I shouldn't worry.
Worry about Libya if you had plans to go there. Egypt is fine. I'd probably recommend NOT visiting the Embassy right now if you don't have to, but there are other sites to visit.

Keep in mind, no matter what anyone 'on the ground' says, that the embassy is under attack, and Americans will NOT have ANY protection or anyone to help them if needed.

Personally, I think anyone planning to go to Egypt needs to have their head examined.

Agree with tinydancer and would add about six other Islamic countries.

regards - tom

Glad to see Debbie (Casual_Cairo) is online and all is ok with her.

Ron & I often think of you and the wonderfully personal tour you gave us of Cairo.

Wish you the best!

Because of the title of this original post, I'm posting this here for those interested to see: http://www.memri.org/report/en/print6674.htm

Tinydancer, you are soooo funny! Tell us a little about yourself and why you are so afraid of the Muslims? Ever met one? Ever met one you liked? I guess not. I really wish you would get over your bad self and get out a bit and meet some people that think differently than you so you might expand your mind and your experience a little bit. You always come on here with your frightening messages from America, yet don't even know if you have ever traveled outside of America. On your profile, it looks like you might have left N America once or twice but can't really tell if that is Sarah Palin under that cap or you? Do tell us about yourself and your experience with Islam or Islamic countries. I'm very curious.

Royal - nice to hear from you. Yes, everything is OK. Our Ambassador is OK and I heard he brought back his wife today so he must consider their safety well installed if she is back. For the average person, we are fine. Sure there are crazies out there, but aren't there any in the states? Oh yeah, might be one or two left in Colorado. Better not go there either. LOL

P.S. Tinydancer - one has to assume when you've been outside the USA, you've never needed assistance from an Embassy by your comment about how NOW we wouldn't have any help from them - as if we did before. LOL With the American Embassy, plan your needs only on Sunday to Wednesday from 8 to noon.... AND make an appt weeks in advance. And if you really do have a REAL emergency, you better hope they define it as an emergency too.

Cary999 - I have to agree with at least 3 or 4 of the other Islamic countries you probably have on your list (certainly Libya, Syria, and Irac) 6 you suggest, but disagree about Cairo and Egypt. No foreigner here has been hurt due to this incident yet, and it is calmer by the minute. Ensha'alla it will be all done soon.

Thanks for your honest opinions and thoughts. And YES tinydancer I am having my head examined on Monday! This trip has caused more headaches and worries, before even leaving the country.

This trip was planned last year. I'm going with a group and at the last minute someone's plans changed--leaving a slot opened. I jumped in.. thought I was saving the day! This is a 17 day excursion. I have always wanted to visit & explore.

Since then, everything has been a rush. A rush for passport,plane tickets,hotels and travel arrangements. All has been booked. Now what? walk away from the trip? Any suggestions on getting reimbursed?

Casual_Cairo, Thanks for updates!

Debbie--we often think of you. Good to hear your commonsense, "on-the-ground", comments.

Years ago I was on a cruise which included a stop in Israel, but when a bad turn of events occurred they diverted us to Cyprus. So to answer the OP's question, yes they can change your ports if they deem it necessary.

Hello CC and thanks for your good input about Egypt.

Thanks.P_M . Did the Cruise line decide the switch while at sea or before you boarded. The cruise line mentioned they wont know, not until a couple of days before arriving.

My concern was staying out at sea longer than what was scheduled . It takes 4 days to get to the detestation--then 2 days there.

CC - since tourists don't generally go to the area where the US Embassy is - how are things in Giza and at the museum, Citadel, Coptic Cairo, etc.? And how about the other typical places in Upper Egypt and the Sinai?

516TP - Go and have fun! Egypt is a wonderful country with incredible history and fabulous people. Unfortunately, like everywhere, there are some bad eggs that stink the whole place up. But they, thankfully, do not represent everyone.

CC - is the violence still confined to specific areas, which can therefore simply be avoided?

Even when Richard Engel (NBC/MSNBC) was reporting the night after the initial upheaval, apparently from terrace/balcony of his hotel with Tahrir Sq below, he clearly pointed out at the far end about 100 hooligans carrying on, but that traffic and pedestrian around the Square was as usual. Also that in the opposite direction, the streets, shops and people 'were going about going about' as usual.

Appears in many of the countries where there have been break-outs it's a handful of 'got nothing to do, so why not stir up some scare' guys who are out there... not the general citizenry.

Sandi - Bazapt keda (Arabic for EXACTLY!). I'm happy to hear about the report from Richard Engel. I wish I could go give him a hug for that. YES, everything is very isolated to near the Embassy.
Even today I went fabric shopping at the Wikala el Balaa which is maybe a mile north of the Embassy on the Nile - it's not far from the Embassy and we had ZERO issues. I mean even as I was shopping, there were those odd salesmen that asked if I was American. I said yes, and got the normal "welcome to Egypt" and all smiles and giggles that they were talking to a foreigner. Granted most of the salesmen in that market are Coptic Christian, but still - things are fine.

Grcxx - have to say I haven't been to the pyramids recently, but there are no reports of danger out there. I was at the Citadel last Saturday (before the mess) but I would not have a problem going there today. THE VAST majority of Muslims may disagree with the making of this film and they may WISH it were being handled more aggressively in America, but they know that being angry and fighting is the wrong way to handle this.

516 - be sure to ask about all your immunizations while you are at the doctor (LOL) and make sure you are up to date on things like tetanus. Have a great trip.

Over and Out for now I'm headed up to the Mediterranean Sea for a few days. I might visit Fodors when I can but don't freak out if I'm not on every day. I'll be eating fish, drinking cocktails and laying on an air mattress in the sea.

Enjoy yourself!

Hi Casual Cairo I'd like to know what you mean exactly by the U.S. handling it more aggressively. Do you mean that we should take a tougher stance against the Islamic terrorists or what? We do have freedom of speech in the U.S. so I would like to know what you are referring to in your statement. We dont burn flags or kill ambassedors if we disagree with statements.

But besides this, does anyone have info on Tunis? We are hoping to do a wildlife safari in Tunisia next summer and am watching the goings-on there with great sadness. Maybe I should start a threat with this question.

516TP, they decided a couple of weeks before we left that it would be unwise to stop in Israel. However they have a right to make a change at a moment's notice if they see fit. They will not take you someplace that is unsafe.

I don't think they will keep you at sea, I bet they will stop somewhere else if they don't go to Egypt. Although I was disappointed not to see Israel on that trip I have to admit Cyprus was a delightful surprise. I never would have visited that country otherwise but I enjoyed it so much I hope to return someday.

cokesmith, I think your idea for a new thread is a good one. Good luck with that.

Thanks again for your responses.. The last cruise I went on They kept us at sea due to weather. It was horrible. All the excursions that were booked was refunded back on a Sea-pass, not cash. 2 of the stops were unavailable..

I'm okay with any changes..at this point. I wouldn't mind a fishing trip in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea. Sounds so relaxing. A friend mentioned getting salt or sand in one of the Sea's. Do you know if that's Jerusalem or Egypt. and to bring some back in a shampoo bottle?

a friend also mentioned to dress in a ḥijāb and or Abaya if the trip still presumes.

516TP - has your friend ever BEEN to Egypt? It it absolutely ridiculous to think you have to wear a hijab or abaya. Dress modestly, but normally. Pants, capris, or long skirts, and a top that covers your upper arms is the best bet. I usually wore pants out by the pyramids and long flowy skirts in town.

But remember to have a headscarf of some kind in case you visit any mosques.

Agree with Grcxx3 above...516TP that is some bad advice and frankly when I have seen obvious dressing in hijab by tourists I am sort of insulted on behalf of the locals. Egyptian women are very stylish hijab or western style and the tourists look just silly. You will not blend in...don't try just dress as Grcxx3 suggests. 516TP it seems as if the trip is going and you have committed so I would just spend some time getting ready for what should be a great experience knowing the cruise line has the ability to substitute ports and there are lots of alternatives in the area you are cruising. You are in a much better position than a land based tour just in Egypt. Time to start getting excited!!

Yes, just be excited to go as you will not find a more welcoming or hospitable people than those in the mideast. I have spent a lot of time in various countries there, inc. Syria and Egypt, and most Muslims are peace loving and family oriented and welcome visitors from all nations. Don't let the actions of extremists or hooligans influence your opinion before actually seeing for yourself how wonderful the Arab culture and people really are.

Debbie - I too was about to give Richard a hug (he is a cutie-pie)... as sometimes his reports aren't as upfront, much as with many other reporters in regions of upheaval and unrest. We have to read/hear between lines, but not this time thankfully!

Please listen to Grcxx3, she lived in Egypt for several years and she knows a lot more than your friend.

I am a female who traveled alone to Egypt. I dressed as I do at home except I never showed my knees or bare shoulders.

Hi. I have been interested in and following the Egypt news since our fabulous vacation in APril this year. While those on the ground in Cairo can probably give you a better perspective, here is what I see by watching the news carefully, and from multiple sources -

The Egyptian demonstrators did not "storm" the embassy. If you think so, you are confusing the demostrations and news in several countries. In Cairo, they climbed the wall around the outside of the compound and tore down and burned the US flag, put up their own black flag. Certainly rowdy and potentailly dangerous, rocks were flying, but not in the catergory of "trashed and burned the embassy" which it might seem from jumbled pictures on the 10-second regular network news snippets.

The next nights, the Egyptian police and riot squads kept the demonstrators quite a ways away from the embassy. They even errected concrete road blockades to control the crowd.

Apparently the third day(?) the demonstrators moved to the interior ministry, suggesting they had many grievances, not just annoyance with videos produced in the USA.

Morsi said they have found some of the demonstrators were paid to attend. Hmmm... rent-a-crowds. Like every other nation, Egypt has its share or extremists. If the most they can muster in hundred in a city of 20 million, that tells you how small a minority the protesters are, especially if a lot are paid to be there. Another group in the demonstration, according to the news, was soccer fan clubs; they are still agitated from the murder of 70 people in a soccer riot, the subsequent closing of the soccer season - and with the repression until 2 years ago, team fan clubs were one of the most organized groups to be used for mass political action.

These "riots" tend to happen during a certain time fo the day. The rest of the time, it is generally business as usual. We read all about huge crowds in Tahrir square, but when we were there, we saw about 3 tents and half a dozen people.

The vast majority of people simply want law and order, peace, and the tourists to return. Tourism is the major source of income. Everybody we encountered this spring was happy and smiling and incredibly helpful.

The dress attire was suggested by a Jordanian friend who actually waned me to meet their family...travel through the streets and bring back fabric and other dry goods. I guess he wanted me to feel at ease..I was going to get a fabulous 2-day tour.
But I don't want to pretend to be something that I am not. As soon as I open my mouth and start talking "my NYC-LI accent" definitely would not blend. lol..
Thanks again for your help and advice, Cant wait for the trip

MD - your posts remind me of a time many years ago (maybe 2003) when there were a series of anti-war riots and protests in Cairo (usually on Fridays, after prayers). Suddenly I was getting emails/phone calls from family and friends in the US asking if we were okay. I had to explain to everyone that the protests were taking place 6-7 miles away from where we lived and that life in our little "burb" was going along quite normally - people were working, shops were open, kids were going to school, ladies were lunching, etc.

516TP - I hope you have a fabulous trip!

Grcxx3, same thing happened to me when I spent a month in Damascus in Mar. 2010 and the protests in Syria had just begun and were confined to Deraa near the border with Jordan. Friends and family were seeing images on tv that made it seem like the whole country was involved which was far from the truth as it took about a year for the momentum to build and reach other cities. Those protests did not involve foreigners or foreign powers either but a desire for regime change. I had to keep explaining that if my embassy recommended we leave, I would leave, but that didn't occur for many months. The media can be a one sided view of the actual situation.

Nowadays we have to keep everything in perspective, whether what we hear or read or rumors.

Living in NYC, walking home from usual stop at Staples, heading to Post Office, I hear helios flying above me... unusual as they're not allowed to. Looked up and wondered 'what the heck?' But once in PO, the manager advises some guy (a baseball player as I recall) in a small plane flying north up the East River makes a turn to return south (the airspace is too small to do that... dumb!) and flies right into a highrise apartment building... OMG! A few upper floors in flames, plane drops to the ground... get the picture? This happens less than 1/mile from where I live on the Upper East Side, and only a few years after 9/11/01.

By the time I arrived home, even without time to turn on the TV, phone is ringing, to find on other end friends in Tanzania and another from Kenya 'are you okay?' 'where do you live in relation to the accident?' They, of course had heard about this in the middle of the night, and as all important and no so important or even correct info, gets around rather quickly these days, nice to know that people care... but we all have to wait for the 'facts' and keep these situations in perspective and not automatically go into panic mode.

Sad, of course, pilot and his paxs dead, and recall a woman in the building badly burned... area blocked off for a few weeks before repairs could be done. It was a terrible and unfortunate accident.

sandi i recall those days you talked about, very well.

This is the reason why I'm very grateful to have a website like this to have these discussions.. forums .In NYC I worked in sales & marketing, in hotels. Media definitely plays a strong role with tourism.This is my first air travel abroad since. 9/11

Still remembering 9/11..one of the buildings destroyed was the place I worked 11 yrs ago. I remember the smell, chaos,and the media coverage around ground zero & the entire metro area. Thanks again for ur advice. Its pretty neat to have eyes and ears global.

Still up on the North Coast - but checking in...

alan43 - What do I mean by the USA being more aggressive?
OK - yes, in America there is freedom of speech, but some time ago it was ammended (I believe) to exclude such things as yelling FIRE in a crowded theatre or such a place (when there is no fire) because it can cause people to be hurt. I think a good lawyer could make a case that this idiot that made this film did it with maice towards a specific group of people and incited violence by doing so. Also, aren't hate crimes still against the law in America? I think this might be able to be put into that catagory as well. I can't believe that any jury would try this guy and come away believing he did it completely without a clue that he was inciting such hatred. Do you? But that is not what I meant when I said what I said above - I said the vast majority of Muslims (here anyway) WISH the states were handling it more agressively - meaning they live and have always lived in a country where if you were to do something like this you would be tossed in prison for a good long time - with a trial or without. They have trouble conceiving THAT much freedom to do such a thing without being in trouble. The same way YOU have trouble conceiving not having the freedom to do something like that. I assume you have never lived in a country with fewer freedoms than America gives so it is pretty difficult for you to consider that normal. The same goes for them. You can look at the way they do things as wrong, and they can look at the way the USA does things as wrong. THAT, my friend, is one of the reasons people need to travel - to see how other people live and how they are because of, or in spite of, it.
You also said, Americans don't burn flags or kill Ambassadors if we disagree with statements. Comeon - I beg to differ on the flag buring issue - maybe you are only 20 years old and never saw news or movies of university students from the 60's and 70's. Hell yes, we burned the American flag on many a college campus. Maybe we don't intentionally kill Ambassadors, but we have certainly killed a fair number of civilians over disagreements. I hope I don't need to get more specific for you, but I can if you need me to. Just think about the people that have been killed over WMD that never materialized.
Enough on that subject though.

MD - WOW!! I love that you were able to decipher all of that from what you found on the news. It's as if you were here. Your description of them NOT "storming" the embassy is perfect. Here in Egypt, they actually behaved pretty well in comparison to what has happened elsewhere. Yes, it is illegal to climb up on the walls of our embassy, but you said it so well when you explain that they didn't destroy the embassy or burn it to the ground, like some people would have you believe.

The statement about "rent a crowd" is probable as well. People here need money and probably would be willing to go throw rocks for cash...besides an opportunity to be an attention whore and get your mug on TV - WOW - who wouldn't want that? LOL - I'm joking, but that seems also to be the mentality of the average 20 yr old Egyptian boy.
There are always LOADS of conspiracy theories about who paid for these crowds, and I'm sure Morsey feels there are plenty of people AGAINST him that want him to look bad, so he has ideas who might start something like this.

It's pretty amazing how this little film has made such an impact on so much of the world. I, for one, sure wish it had not been made.

America is not perfect, never has been, never will be. And where you live is better?? Have you seen this article from BBC about treatment of women in Egypt?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19440656
And Egypt is one of the better Islamic countries for women. They can even drive a car there!!! Would you, or anyone, want to be a women in a conservative Islamic culture?

regards - tom

Sure know about 'rent a crowd' as end-'08 after the elections (around Christmas) in Kenya when all hell broke loose about the results - who won, who stole the election, and on and on - in a tribal country. People were killed, shacks burned, street rioting though in selected areas. It was all over the news, but yet after the first day those who had jobs went to work, moms took kids to school, then were off to the market and the yuppies were enjoying their morning lattes and papers.

That, however, is not what we saw on CNN, because on a daily basis, the hooligans were being paid about $5/day to cause havoc and pan for the cameras. And, sure enough the day the 'moneyman' didn't show up, there was nothing for CNN to show, but give us a verbal report.

Democracy isn't a pretty picture, all tied up in a neat package... ours sure wasn't and took years, with many dead bodies left behind. And, whose democracy? Ours or theirs? With countries having no infrastructure - Libya that has to start from the bottom up; those under dictators that have to find the way that works for them and the citizenry being educated. Even when the Eastern Block fell, they didn't get their acts together overnight and some still aren't there, while some are still as corrupt as before.

As if our Democracy doesn't have its own issued! Or expecting a financial meltdown to be fixed in 3-4/yrs, when the Depression took over 10/yrs. thru WWII ending in '45 that we could see above the water line.

None of what happens is this very big world, with different cultures and histories, and hoping all would be fine for everyone, is like the 'send' button on our email... immediate.

Bye the way 'anyone know where to purchase on the spot, an American flag in some foreign country no less, to burn in front of the news cameras?' Shoot, I sure wouldn't right here in Amer-eee-ca!

Debbie - The movie is, to use a movie term, a McGuffin. In reality the attack on the embassy could have claimed to be sparked by any number of affronts to Islam from someone in the United States. One of the founding principals of the United States is that people are free to criticize, comment, ridicule, ignore, or embrace whatever religious belief they so choose. Equating the movie to yelling "fire" is exactly the special ground some Muslims would like to claim. Fire is a tangible universal physical threat to humans, regardless of political or religious affiliation, therefore yelling it in a crowded theater is in some cases actionable. Criticizing Muhammad is only a universal human threat if you believe Islam is a special case religious institution. It is not. It deserves no more protection or special privileges than any other religion. I know you are right there in the middle of a Muslim country and could not safely go out and widely express such an opinion even if you held it. But please refrain from agitating for the removal of our civil liberties in the United States. Tossing someone in prison for expressing an unpopular opinion will never be ok in the United States.

Casual Cairo don't patronize me with your bs about perhaps I'm 20 yrs old. My age is of no consequence. You stated it is perhaps a "hate crime" but what exactly is the crime that deserves rioting and murder. I am also not your friend don't speake condensending to me, I don't know nor care whom you are, but not a friend.

Yes I know about flag burning etc but I also know about the World Trade Center and the people murdered there of all religions and nationalities.

alan43 - you asked CC to clarify her comments, and she did - with a great deal of honesty. I do not consider her comments patronizing or condescending, but I do find your response a little rude.

All I know is that this film has resulted in the deaths of several people, numerous riots and attacks throughout the Middle East, Africa, and Asia, and (most likely) bomb threats on at least 4 US university campuses. Like CC, I wish the film had never been made.

I wish we could be more accurate here. The movie did not cause the deaths of several people. The belief of some Muslims that Islam has ultimate authority over the entire world is the root cause.

No question, misguided individuals were involved, but they were reacting to the movie clip - so the movie was the catalyst.

"No question, misguided individuals were involved, but they were reacting to the movie clip - so the movie was the catalyst."

And I believe (alan43 and favor don't need to agree with me) that the people that put this movie together and then distributed it are equally misguided as they DID know that since the 700's Muslims have believed that you don't do anything like this to or about Mohamed the prophet. They knew that well and knew full well that it was going to cause havoc. I will never believe they did this just to be funny and meant NO harm.
If you give someone else the amunition to kill someone, with that end in mind, and they go do it, does that resolve you of all responsibility? Possibly, but not in the world I would prefer to live in.

If you want to live in a world without freedom of expression that is certainly your right. Throughout human history, including before the 700s, there have been regimes and groups who think as you.

Chill out, Favor. No one is saying freedom of expression is a bad thing. But freedom involves responsibility, and in my opinion, the producers of this film acted irresponsibly.

The evidence seems to be pointing in the direction that the film had nothing to do with the murders of the four people. The rioting seemed to used as an excuse possibly a front for the planned murders on 9/11. If we have to live in fear of Muslim extremists dictating to the rest of the world what is accptable to them, then it's time to take a firm stand against extreism.

Casual_Cairo says - "If you give someone else the amunition to kill someone...."
Ammunition like - "Hey dude, your sister is fat". Then the brother has acceptable reason to behead the offender? Guess yes it does in some Muslim societies.

regards - tom

Grcxx3 - I am totally chill However I am also very concerned that people are tiptoeing around and ignoring the truth. We have a huge culture clash going on here and I think it's important for everyone to be very clear about what they stand for and what their positions mean and imply.

People, you and Debbie included, are most certainly saying freedom of expression is a bad thing. If you think the filmmaker acted irresponsibly then you don't support freedom of expression. If you can't defend the right of someone to say something that is completely antithetical to your world view, then your support for freedom of expression amounts to just a pose.

Grcxx3 - this is quickly going south, I can see that. I don't belive they are capable of agreeing to disagree, but that is where I am right now.
I'm tired of bumping my head against the wall with this lot.
Over and out.

<<People, you and Debbie included, are most certainly saying freedom of expression is a bad thing.>>

No, Favor, I am NOT saying freedom of expression is a bad thing. It is actually a very GOOD thing. BUT - I do think that people need to take ownership of their views, and that means accepting that their views may not be welcomed by everyone. And in this case, most 6th graders could figure out that Muslim extremists would be upset and could reasonably predict what the reaction would be. It's not rocket science.

CC - I'm with you. I lived in Egypt and currently live in another 3rd world African country where the freedoms we know as Americans do not exist. More than ever, the responsibility that comes along with freedom is abundantly clear.

Tchau!

I agree with Favor 100%.

"With freedom comes responsibility". The thinking that the filmmaker should refrain from making the film because it might incite wrong-thinking people* to riot is antithetical to our notions of free speech. If worrying about what people think would cause the filmmaker to NOT make the film then our liberties will have been trounced, and the other side will have "won".

* Yes, I do believe they are wrong-thinking, because I believe personal freedom is an absolute.

First, the USA is unique in having true free speech. A group of Nazis has the right to march (peacefully) through a Jewish neighbourhood. Anyone can say bad even untrue things about the president. You can deny the holocaust happened. You can march in KKK robes.

"Yelling fire in a crowded theatre" is a very bad example. It was written by Oliver Wendell Holmes to justify stripping American citizens of citizenship to deport them strictly because of their political views; even he admitted later it was his worst supreme court decision.

I suggest you all read this http://www.economist.com/node/21563311
/quote
...The anger displayed at all these events was certainly real, and widely shared among Muslims. Yet the television coverage of protests obscured an obvious fact. As in many other protests across the region, the crowd at the fiery Friday sermon in Cairo numbered in the mere hundreds, in a space where throngs a thousand times bigger have become commonplace. In the midst of a city of perhaps 20m inhabitants, the rest went about their business as usual. The number of youths who actually picked up rocks barely rose to the dozens. Their anger was aimed as much at the police as against “the West”. The street-fighting looked more like a rowdy sporting event, replete with parading to the cameras, than a clash of civilisations. /quote

That says it all. Finally, the film was (allegedly) made by an American who immigrated from Egypt, a Coptic. He knew exactly what he was doing and what could be the result. If you call someone an a####le should you be surprised if you or people with you get punched in the face? It's still illegal to punch someone, but a strong provocation will often get the expected result.

As a side note, current newspaper reports are that the attack on the Libyan consulate was a deliberate planned attack with weapons, not a wild demonstration. Is Egypt safe? Well it's hard to pull off that sort of attack except in an anarchic unpolished area with plenty of weapons - that's Libya, not Egypt.

You can run away, but you can't escape the fact that, by holding the filmmaker responsible for the deaths, your position requires the acceptance that people in group "A" have some right to kill the people in group "B" because of what someone in group "B" has: painted, written, filmed, worn, said, or thought.

I can certainly agree to disagree with that position of intolerance.

Favor - they are ALL wrong in my opinion. It's just a horribly sad situation.

Favor - to clear things up, I AM NOT "running away". I am choosing to stop arguing with you.
Actually you and I agree that killing is wrong. Somewhere you seem to have come up with the idea that I thought killing was OK. It's NOT OK.

Also, I'm NOT holding the filmmaker responsible for the deaths. He didn't kill anyone, but I think he incited the violence and I think he intended to do so. There is some responsibility there I think he should accept. Do you think he made this film in the name of art? Or what do you think his motovations were?

AND Thank You MD for your constand voice of reason!

Ditto what CC said.

Debbie - You cannot simultaneously say "I'm NOT holding the filmmaker responsible" and then say there is "some responsibility there I think he should accept". This is the unrealistic split personality of your position.

I do not know why the filmmaker made the movie. It could have been to incite trouble. It could have been in anger over some slight he felt from someone in Islam. He might have felt wronged by some former wife or girlfriend. He might be a Coptic Christian who feels the story needed to be told. He may be a free speech advocate. He maybe thought he could make a lot of money. He might have wanted publicity. He might be a radical Muslim and he wanted a vehicle his fellows could jump on. Only that person knows for sure. You cannot point a divining rod at someone and know what they think. The rod points where the examiner pushes it.

Ultimately it's irrelevant why the movie was made. That's why I called it a McGuffin. Some radical Muslims want to impose their Islamic sensibilities on the whole world. They want to make anti-Islam movies, thought, works of art, books, or what have you against the law. They want others anti-Islamic thoughts to be justification for destroying those others. This directly contradicts the free speech and expression rights of the USA and much of the West. To retreat from that is to truly go backwards in humanity's ongoing quest to be better humans.

If a religion is so brittle that it can't stand outside pressure then it's time for that religion to have a reformation. It certainly is not time for the whole world to walk on eggshells and worry about what might be the next affront that will set off radical Muslims. That is a game only the aggrieved can win. South Park, Piss-Christ, ugly cartoons, and all the rest are not going to bring down Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Mormonism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Confucianism, or whatever "ism" you ascribe to. Likewise, legally imposed "respect" is rotten wood that is not suitable for building anything.

Anyway, that's my position. Good luck to you.

I think we might be on the same cruise. I called the cruise line earlier and they told me they had redirected the September route to two different places. The operator did not know if the October cruise would be redirected but to check the website for updates. She also said that someone would call a few days before sailing if any changes were scheduled. I looked into booking tours through local companies to keep the $$ in Egypt but booked through the cruise line in case we don't go there. I ended up doing the same thing in Jerusalem. We are going to miss out on some of the destination areas booking through the cruise line but I was thinking I could get refund if... I'm looking forward to seeing a little more of this world!

It is not illegal to leave matches an a large can of gasoline on your front step - but then, should you be surprised and blameless if someone starts a fire in a building and someone dies?

Making a film that badly insults the cherished religious beliefs of a billion people may be a perfectly legal act in the USA - but is it morally right to do something like that, knowing that it could provoke a few of those to commit murder? Is provoking murder morally OK just because it is not illegal?

The laws do not prevent bad behaviour, they simply limit some excesses of it.

Does this mean that we should walk on egg shells and censor everything we do or say in order not to offend Islamic fanatics or terrorists? We give up some of our freedom by giving into extremism. We have to stay firm and strong and refuse to give in to the ignorance of extremism. By self censoring we lose our freedom.

No. Don't walk on eggshells, but don't tramp manure all over the nice clean carpets even if that is your right...

Think of it as the golden rule:

If someone asks you to do something that is offensive to you, that you would not ask them to do, then they are infriging on you. However, if you blatantly and deeply offend and insult someone, why should you expect them to act calmly and rationally? If you expect others to temper their actions, you should be prepared to do the same.

The Danish cartoons, for example, were political cartoons with a purpose - to comment on the situation in the Islamic world. That is simply free speech, offensive but their right and making an honest point. The video, or at least the english version that I got about half-way through, was offensive and deliberately insulting for no discernable purpose. Similarly - I haven't seen the Hebdo cartoons, but the descriptions sound equally offensive rather than making a point.

Perhaps the distinction might be similar to the distinction between art and pornography. They can both show naked women, they can both offend some people completely. (I'm thinking of Ashcroft standing in front of what looked like a movie Oscar statue, but with drapery hung on it because he was a prude) However, the distinction is as much in the intent as the artistry of the final product.

The liberation of the Islamic world from extremist agitators will not happen with the West continually insulting them. As long as we are giving ourselves the role of enemy provocateur, we simply give extremists - the Islamic equivalent of the Tea Party - someone to hold up as the enemy. Openness will happen when the same forces that created the Arab Spring look at the extreme demands of the more strict self-proclaimed moralists and decide for themselves, that enough is enough. The actions of the clerics in Iran, for example, guarantee that when their time also comes, the group taking over will not be a form of the Muslim Brotherhood.

MD - you deserve a giant LIKED for that post!

MD - You are claiming that being insulted or deeply offended is a reason for mayhem? You can forgive this in a 10 year old, only the emotionally stunted or physically feeble would abide this in an adult.

Wading into the art vs. pornography debate doesn't get you any further with grownups. The distinction between art and pornography is clearly in the eye of the beholder and the age in which they live. If you think the distinction is so clear you must think you're Solomon. But of course you must be, as you can see into people's hearts and decide whether someone's art work is puerile, political, or purposeless.

You've got the recipe for liberating Islam from extremist agitators backwards. Abandoning free speech and free expression will not lead to more freedom for anyone. Western criticism and insults are not preventing moderate Islam from emerging. If the West kowtows to radical Islam, it will only further empower radical Islam. Lack of free expression and debate within Islam is keeping radical Islam energized. Like the Papacy in the Middle Ages, radical Islam brooks no dissent.

Favor: No, you`re confusing rights and good behaviour. Being insulted is not a reason for mayhem, but are you surprised that in a nation of 84 million (not mention a billion worldwide) there are a thousand who either react like a 10-year-old or join in the `fun` because they like to cause trouble? Heck, you can find that in any sporting event world-wide.

You`re the one not getting it. Just because you ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED to say or do something does not mean it is good behaviour or the right thing to do. Just because it`s our right to tell lies and half truths does not mean we should. Like the boy who cried `wolf`, if we persist in gratuitous insults to a people, they aren`t going to listen when we tell them how to improve their lives either.

Of course, when you see stupid protests like the one against the NYC cutural center, we send mixed messages - In America you have freedom of religion, and you can do whatever you want with the property you own, unless you are Muslim and want to build a mosque... Do you think that message is lost on the Middle East? Do you think they think of America as a shining beacon of freedom, or a bunch of hypocrites? Let him who is without sin...

Gratuitous insults to the religion of Islam simply force the moderates to choose between their religion and the people who insult them. If we stand back and leave it to them, as happened with the Arab Spring, they will soon figure out that freedom is the best choice.

I didn`t say abandon free speech, I said use it wisely.

MD Rights and good behavior are seperate. I can curse someone, it is my freedom of speech yet not good behavior To kowtow before islamic terrorists is to give in to giving up a freedom that is guaranteed i our constitution. In The muslim countries there is no freedom of speech as in ours To respect their rights is correct. However the Muslim extremists MUST respect our rights and we do not have to modify our rights to satisfy religious exremists.

I did not ever suggest that the filmmaker engaged in "good behavior". I get the issue quite well. You apparently don't.

The filmmaker is not a "we", as in America and the West has insulted Islam because of the film, which is the ostensible reason to riot. Just because we have freedom of speech does not mean "we", as in all of us in the United States of America, have agreed to insult or have insulted Islam through the film. You cannot corporately hold a people responsible for the actions of a few members of that people. We are constantly reminded of this fact by the groups decrying "Islamophobia".

If however Islam contends that the simple fact that we have freedom of speech is an insult to Islam, which more and more appears to be the case, then we have clearly come down to a fundamental question. Does Islam's "right" to not be offended supersede free speech and free expression rights. I don't believe any religion has the right to not be gratuitously or even studiously insulted.

This would amount to establishing a de-facto state religion because Islam is the only religion which has decided it doesn't want to handle being insulted.

wow been out of here for a while, is this still the Egypt forum or did I walk onto the set of a newsnight debate

I think everyone had their say, and really this is a travel forum and I think that CC answered the question - yes Egypt seems to be safe now and it was a small pocket of people causing the troubles there (as it often is). I think it would be a good idea to draw a line under it now.

CC kindly gave her opinion on the situation there and all seems to be fine there now.

Just a thought!

Hello. Just wanted to add my 2 cents on this topic. My mother and I ttraveled to Egypt in 2010. As Americans we were treated extremly well and saw a land and people who were in need of social and political change. Both my mother and I plan to travel back to this wonderful country without fear. Egypt and its people have a culture and inner peace that is unlike no other. I encourage eveyone not judge a country by some of its people who display violence. All countries have problems and a certain segment of people who cause those problems including America. Egypt is in a time of re-birth and the process will take time and patience. I am loking ofrward to a return trip and feel the very essence of the Egyptian people and the land that has given humankind so much history!

Wow Guys, good debate. I guess "travel broadens the mind" is true.

I'm reasonably comfortable in Islamic countries/North African coast and I'm in Egypt (for the first time) (Luxor so pretty quiet I guess) from 19th Dec for a week. With the 15th vote coming up tomorrow, can Casual_Cairo and others with their feet-on-the-ground advise what the latest status is for tourists.

Let's see what happens AFTER the vote today. Should be interesting!

Hello Everyone! As a solo female traveler, I had absolutely no problems whatsoever while in Cairo in August and September of 2012. My apartment that I rented was three blocks from Tahrir Square. One just need use your common sense and avoid protests and demonstrations as you would anywhere in the world. Egyptian people are warm, friendly, kind, helpful and sweet...and their country is beautiful!

Just to say I got back this morning after 7 days in glorious Luxor. The place is relatively empty of tourists so prices are very low, the quality of food was excellent (particularly as a Vegi) and while the wine is not up to snuff the people were friendly and the hassle was at a pretty low level.

bilboburgler - which wine were you drinking? did you try the cape bay? Nothing wrong with that, IMHO.

Casual, it was and looking at the other "standards" I guessed it was the best. On technical merits it's a clean bright wine with a nose mainly of the laboratory that tastes as if it has been made as two wines and mixed. One of the wines has a very short taste with just a hint of fruit, the other has a medium length taste that is not particularly nice. I'd rate it in the 10/20 level, ie drinkable with no particular technical faults. I know it was red and might have some Merlot in it. (you asked )

I've had the Omar Kyam before and still shudder at the experience.

Still the beer (Stella) is drinkable if very Heinekin based and hence really just for slaking your thirst (Think Ice Cold in Alex for those who remember old films).

I think the Lemon drink that I had all over was pretty good and since I had a cold the hot Hibiscus tea was envigerating.

For food the little Metse type dishes of Falefal (with parsley) and cheese in pastry and the odd humous and other dips made a good lunch time snacks. For my main meals I liked the variations on oven baked veggie stews with or without cheese and stuff.

Mrs Bilbo looked on Trip Advisor this am (weather is horrible in UK at moment so stayed in bed) and saw the Egypt area is very active with terrible storys of being scammed. All I can say is even the man in charge of the airport security xray machine wanted baksheesh for taking my bag and putting it badly onto the conveyor belt.

<<All I can say is even the man in charge of the airport security xray machine wanted baksheesh for taking my bag and putting it badly onto the conveyor belt.>>

And he would have been satisfied with somewhere between 10 and 50 pence for doing that, since he probably makes about 50 GBP a month for a salary. Compared to the UK everything here is SO inexpensive that a bit of back sheesh here and there seems fair (to me). It is something that one has to get used to, I understand that. If they were making the same slaries as the workers in the UK or the union workers in the states, the request for a tip would seem over the top, but under the circumstances I sort of appreciate that I get to pick and choose how much and to whom my welfare donation goes to.
Come to think of it though, in the states if a man takes your bag from you at the airport (curb service) and puts it on the conveyor belt (nicely or badly) he expects a great deal more than 50 pence, and he will no doubt make sure it is tossed on badly if he doesn't get at least $5.00. The bad thing in the states is that it is sometimes hard to even find someone that will help. Is it different in the UK?

LOL about the wine - but what do I know? Not that much, for sure!

If the guy had been at the curb I 'd agree. But I was standing by the xray machine and he was in the way, effectivley I swung it, he touched it and it went to the wrong part of the conveyor. I think if he had been successful it would have been "as assist basket" as it was he was in the way, added no value and almost damaged stuff.

I had no problem with shoe cleaners, waiters, cleaners, taxis and "guides" (hah).

In the UK there is not much "help" hanging about the streets and the whole tipping thing wins Brits no real plaudits on Fodors however. I see it like this.

The UK. If you need help getting through the airport (wheelchair etc), the aircraft company provides it (free) it's in EU law. When you queue for the Taxi, its free, people know how to queue it does not take many brain cells and opening doors is not too tricky. If you need door helping skills you ask the taxi driver who is going to expect 10%. If you are so weak you need a porter there are people and I have no idea what they cost but I guess £5 to £10. They are around but you often have to send for them. When you get to the hotel, I walk away from a hotel that wanted me to give them my bag to show me to a room (which an idiot could find) and I'd certainly expect to carry my own bag. I think in London there are hotels that offer porters and I guess again £1 to £5 would be right (no idea) I'd still leave a tip in the hotel room if I'd stayed a few days (£10) but not if just over night.

Waiters in restaurants get at least minimum wage (well everyone gets minimum wage unless you are self employed) and I'd put 10% on the table (not the card) unless "service" is included in which case 5%.

I'd also expect all prices to be tax inclusive.

So visiting the States is very weird. In Egypt it is not so bad, I guess due to the low value of the currency, but how do you maintain a stream of change in your pocket to pay this backsheesh when you are not used to it. How do you remember to keep filling your pockets with the stuff? Do you order it especially?

Anyway, have a look at Trip Advisor and see what the poor guy with the wheelchair bound wife did, he paid backsheesh, they did nothing for it so he still ended up doing all the work.

You had a lot to say, but the only real point you made that I want to comment on at this point was this:
<<When you queue for the Taxi, its free, people know how to queue it does not take many brain cells....>>

When I first moved here I felt exactly the same way. I could not understand a nation of people that could NOT seem to stand in line and wait their turn. It drove me nuts. There are times when it still drives me nuts, but then I try to remember something someone once told me about why this might be the case....

You and I have been priviledged to be born in and raised in a country where, for as long as we have been around (more than likely) there has been plenty for everyone and we learned at a very early age that if we were polite and waited our turn we would get our share. Sadly that isn't the case everywhere in the world, and Egypt is certainly one of the places in the world that most of the population learned early that if they didn't push and shove their way to the front of the line, they might be turned away with nothing to show for the time they spent. This has applied over the last two decades to things like bread, butter, gasoline, and more staples that you and I consider nearly our right to have, and not a priviledge. I know I have NEVER had to push and shove my way to the front of the bread line before they closed the window because they were out of the daily allotment. I hope you haven't either. But many of these people have themselves, and certainly their parents did. It's cultural and a learned response that will take time to break the habit.

One of my missions here is to teach everyone how to stand in line though. Wish me luck. I can't leave until they know how to do this.

great comment, I agree with all you say. I understand that in London the queue is begining to fade away as society down there downgrades.

I still don't understand how in the "tipping society" people have the cash in their pockets all the time.

THANK YOU, Casual Cairo for your excellent post concerning queues I haven't posted on Fodors in a long time, but have been lurking in anticipation of my upcoming trip to Egypt and Jordan. (January 10! Can't wait.)

I'm in SHOCK that your extremely logical explanation for the chaotic lines I've often encountered non-Western countries never occurred to me. (Not to mention the aggressive touts.) I've always been pretty zen about stuff like that, but I suspect your insights will make whatever hassles I encounter even easier to deal with.

Ugh, there's a huge typo in my previous post. There should be a period in the middle of that humongous, illogical first sentence that should, in fact, be two sentences. Is there a way to edit posts?

<<I still don't understand how in the "tipping society" people have the cash in their pockets all the time.>>

It's called preplanning and learning to deal with it. I usually try to carry small bills and change when I know I will be going out. Other times I use the language skills I've accumulated and if I only have large bills, I've been known to ask the service giver if they have change.
You have to assume the bathroom ladies and gents have pockets full of 1LE coins and would be delighted to exchange 9 of those for a 10LE note.... or 19 for a 20LE note.
You must speak the language though as they won't understand why you want their money otherwise, and I haven't figured out a way to turn that action into charades yet.
Another plan is to go to any kiosk on the street and buy a small bottle of water with your big bill. You should get useable change for that, then you have water and change - two good things to have here.

TravlinFool - This site does not offer a method to edit your posts. The only good way to do that is to hit Preview first and proof read your post before hitting Submit. Otherwise do what you did and just fix it in another post - but you'll probably soon get sick of that and just leave the mistakes in like the rest of us. Will Casual Cairo be seeing you while you are in Egypt next month?

Don't think we'll be in Cairo long enough for that to happen! My friend and I are only going to be in the city for a day and half before heading to Luxor. I wanted to spend more time in Cairo, but my traveling buddy was made paranoid by everybody telling him we were crazy to go to Egypt in the first place. I had to promise him we would spend minimal time in Big Bad Cairo. Sigh.

Lady Egypt is the tour company. Got the name here on Fodors. They've been a pleasure to deal with. If their ground game is as good as their internet game, we'll be well taken care of.

While I was in Egypt last spring, I was at first a little overwhelmed with the demand for handouts whether as a tip or not. At tourist areas you learned to avoid eye contact because as soon as they pointed to something they wanted a tip whether you asked them to or not. However, a few times, like in Luxor when we had time, we actually listened to what they had to offer and were treated with a wonderful fellucah ride to a restaurant up the Nile and a private camel trip. Each of these cost us much less than what the travel agent's guide was offering and we felt we really had some unique experiences. I applaud the entrepreneurship of some of these young men. On top of that the 'tip' at the end of our experiences probably fed the man's family for a week. Tourists are so low there now that you can understand their desperation. I am not a 'bleeding heart' and can walk away from any aggressive demand for money but I was very happy to contribute when appropriate.