Normally it's considered polite to post a link to anything you are asking people to review. Here's a link to the tour I believe you're asking about.

http://www.globaljourneys.com/coach_tours/europe/europe/cosmos/5211.php

I sometimes take tours but would never do any tour like this because it's too much time on the bus and too little time seeing the sights.

IMHO you won't get a taste of each country; you'll get less than that - you'll get lots of seeing highways.

You will get varying opinions about this type of tour. Plenty of people will say that what they see is enough for them. Decide what type of person you are and if you'll be disappointed by running all over Europe in 3 weeks.

When you examine the tour information you need to look at hotel locations (many times outside of the main areas) and if you will actually visit sights or just zoom by them on the bus (visit or see).

Cosmos is a budget tour and you will get what you pay for in terms of hotels, restaurants, sightseeing, guides. If you can afford to spend more on a tour I would do so and I would limit the number of stops and countries.

There are tons of threads on this board about taking this type of tour. Do a search for them.

You need to understand the basic facts and language of tours:

Typically you have to have you luggage outside your door at 7 am and be on the bus at 8 am for a long day of driving

There are often stops for "shopping" you may not want

For this type of budget tour hotels are often modern motel types out by the highway rather than actualy in towns

Meal provided are often americanized version of local food in separate hotel room with minimal choices

Many things you will want to see and do are "extra" tours so understand the price they list is NOT what you will pay

In terms of attractions:

View - means you see it out the bus window as you drive by
Stop - means a 5 minute photo op out front
Visit - is the only time you will go inside - and your time may be very limited - don't assume you will see the whole sight

We are independent travelers and my only 2 experiences with tours was very unsatisfactory - and that was more expensive ones with better hotels and meals

But if you want to rush through a large number of places in limited time this is the easiest way to do it.

I very strongly reco you search out info on the hotel locations when picking a tour though - since you don;t want to be stranded at the end of hell and gone on your "free evening"

I did a "if it's Paris, it must be Monday" tour years ago. I remember the back of the bus seat in front of me.
If you prefer the ease of a tour look around at several companies that offer tours and compare their itineraries, the 'Extras" (every single day trip, side trip, dinner, etc will be a cost add-on).
Perhaps you have a couple of cites you'd really like to see? Plan a few days in one to start, take a tour for a week and end in your other chosen city for a few days.
Or pick a country for this trip and see several cities in just that one.
Moving every day is very tiring and you really wont get to see or experience the people or culture.
You wont have time to just sit at a cafe with a glass of wine and people watch, or window shop, or wander and maybe get lost and have to ask a local for directions.
Those are the moments that make a trip memorable.

I appreciate the quick replys. I am new to this so I did not put the link in. It is

http://www.affordabletours.com/search/tours/49129/

I did look at the hotel locations on kayak and almost all are on the outskirts. There are available modes of transportation to get in to town. Hotels are just so-so but we can live with that as we hope to be out and about.
Out of the 2 days there are only 7 dinners. 23 breakfasts which are all in the hotels. Can't imagine that the food will be all that great and we will be eating out a bit. And the excursions they offer are not listed so it is hard to figure out what is and what is not offered. I have yet to talk to someone as I like to research first and narrow down the questions.
I have looked at some more expensive, less extensive, tours and a lot of them seem like they offer breakfasts at the hotels. And not all include dinners either.
I wish there was more to choose from other than cosmos, globus and trafalgar for budget minded people like ourselves we would appreciate it.

Tours are great, as long as the group is small, fewer then 20 would be ideal. And as already noted, a 24-day bus tour with Cosmos would be grueling to say the least.

If this is to be your first trip abroad, then you should sit down and decide what to want to see and do, do a little research on the area and keep the trip reasonable in length. 24 days on the road is a long time.

Tours are expensive. That's part of the reason so many people plan their own trips - it's much cheaper to do it yourself.

Can I ask how much you're playing for this tour and what other tour companies you've looked at?

Tours offer breakfast at the hotel since it's so much easier to have breakfast there and then gather your belongings for the day. Herding 40 people to a cafe and back to the hotel and getting ready to start the day is not reasonable. Hotels offer breakfast buffets including cheese, meat, pastry, yogurt, fruit so it's a large meal. You wouldn't be able to get that type of breakfast in a cafe, especially when you have to pay for each cup of coffee/tea.

Check out AARP's travel site for info.
http://www.aarp.org/travel/

I did a 21 day multi-city tour in my 20's and found it exhausting. In my 40's I prefer to actually stop for a few days and see the city before moving on (or not )

Have you considered a European River Cruise? That way you only unpack once and you can relax on the boat between sights and cities.

<<And the excursions they offer are not listed . . .>>

That's incorrect. The excursions are stated but you need to understand itineraryish.

For example: "Tonight maybe a leisurely cruise on the River Thames?"
" take the optional Rhine River cruise"
"A grand selection of optional activities completes the day: a cruise on the fjord-like lake or a cable-car ride to the 10,000-foot summit of Mount Titlis."
"the optional gondola trip"
"The optional trip to Toledo . . ."

And there are a good number of sales stops - Venetian glass-blowing, a French perfumery, Amsterdam diamond-cutting, etc. These are demos where the shops try to sell you their goods and cut a % to the tour guide.

Another option is to use someone like Gate1 http://www.gate1travel.com/europe-travel/default.aspx

They offer independent options so they take care of booking the transit and hotels, but you arent stuck to the grueling schedules during the day or their expensive optionals or their bad food.

Hotels on the outskirts, even with transit options, means you will be far from the sites so wont be able to walk to dinner or sites in the evening and will be somewhat stuck using their 'optional' dinners. It also means you will have to pay for that transit on top of your tour if you dont do what the group is doing.

OMG - floridastu - you're considering spending lots of money on this trip and you didn't read the itinerary? LOL BigRuss is correct - it's all spelled out in black and white. Most of them are not hidden - they are called "optional." I didn't catch this because I did not read the itinerary but I'm not considering this trip.

Please do yourself (and your bank account) a huge favor. Read the itineraries of any tour you plan to take.

That's probably one of the worst tour itineraries I've seen. Every other day is traveling so out of your 22 days, you are only traveling for 11 of them. They are only give you one full day in major cities. Could you see NYC in one day? LA? Chicago?

Most hotels that tour companies list are sample hotels. They typically reserve the right to change to comparable hotels.

Look at tours that spends 3-4 days in a city. Many colleges offer alum tours so you might check that out.

It is very tiring not to be able to settle in for a few days somewhere. I don't think you will find packing/moving every other day pleasant.

I have had two experiences with the guided tour life, my first trip to Europe when I was a teen, and a tour through Portugal, Spain , and Morocco with my wife. The first was "If this is Tuesday, It Must be Belgium" style, with a cool 50% of the time in transit, and with almost everything included. My most vivid memory is of the one free day in Rome. Come to think of it, most of the best memories of the second trip also were of free time. We never bought anything at the staged and time-wating artisanal buy it here stops.

The take home conclusions on guided tours are pretty much as has been said: You spend a lot of time on the bus. The hotel may or may not be convenient for anything independent. The food is OK, and never more than that. You learn to pack and unpack quickly (a useful skill for the remainder of my travels, however). If there are three important sights at a location, you will drive by one, stop for a photo op at another, and get a tour of the third, which will be an off the rack tour bookable at any hotel by anyone.

On the other hand, my love of travel was established by that first tour, and I discovered that one should not order Tartar Steak without knowing what it is.

"have looked at some more expensive, less extensive, tours and a lot of them seem like they offer breakfasts at the hotels. And not all include dinners either."

That is a good thing IMO - being stuck for breakfast every day w/ the same 40 other people for 3 weeks is bad enough, but having massive group dinners too -- I'd kill somebody

You don't want the sorts of dinners provided by budget tour companies.

"Hotels are just so-so but we can live with that as we hope to be out and about."

Not necessarily possible - many hotels are on the outskirts w/o easy transport. They want you on the tour bus.

Rick Steves is unpopular here, but I've done a few of his tours, although not the Europe overview one, You get good guides, central hotels, no tipping, very few shopping ops and usually fun travel companions. The groups are 22-28 depending on the tour.

http://tours.ricksteves.com/tours/best-europe/europe-21-days

Most of the outfits that do small group tours (10-20) don't have Europe overview tours, or many western European tours at all, since it's so easy to travel there by yourself. Before you sign up to be herded around in a group, take some time to read up on independent travel in Europe.

Agree - all the info is in the description - it's all that optional stuff - most of what you do.

And hotels are at the end of hell and gone: "Amsterdam area?" what's that? Venice hotels are on the mainland - not in Venice.

And for a tour like this understand every seat on the bus is likely to be full, meaning very fast pit stops twice a day - and some companions who will be late all the time or whining or just plain obnoxious.

Really study this carefully, ass in the costs of the extras and then see if a better tour is really more expensive. And you don;t want dinners included - since you won;t want the food.

If you aren't comfortable doing everything yourself I would look at packages from Gate 1.

One of the hardest things for first timers traveling to Europe is to limit their itinerary. Not surprisingly, they want to see it all. If budget is a real concern,you would be far better off visiting a few countries in two weeks than seeing very little of 8 countries in three weeks. There are better tours available.

Have a look at Rick Steves. He's really not unpopular here except for his guide books on Britain. Not the best! Elder Hostel has changed their name, and I can't recall what it's now called, but they have some very good tours. Even a river cruise along one of Europe's major waterways would be a vast improvement. I haven't traveled with them but know that Viking is currently offering 2 for 1 prices. Their tours look considerably better than the one posted.

Thanks for all the info. We are going to rethink this tour.
We are in the planning stages and all the info is real,real helpful.
I am thinking London, Paris, Venice and Rome. I see in London and Paris they have 2 and 4 day passes. Venice and Rome is ala carte.
My wife still likes the idea of a "guided tour" but I can see that we should be able to do this ok on our own.
Will post again after refining the trip for more great info.
And I did look at Gate1. Rick Steves are more money than what we really want to spend but I will consider it as it sounds really close to all inclusive.
Stu

London, Paris, Venice and Rome are really easy to connect by train. Take a look at seat61.com for lots of info on taking trains in Europe. You can book a multi-city airfare, flying into London and out of Rome.

If you want guides you can arrange/join day tours. For instance, you say you're active, and London Walks has loads of great walking tours in London (http://www.walks.com/ ). I'm not sure what passes you're talking about.

"I see in London and Paris they have 2 and 4 day passes"

I know you are just starting to reconsider things -but whatever you decide DO NOT buy the London Pass. You may not realize this but almost all of the museums and galleries are free and there are much cheaper ways to get discounts for the 'for pay' sites. The London Pass is a real rip off.

(You also don't need a pass in Paris)

>>London, Paris, Venice and Rome.<< would make a very nice 3 week trip.

I think tours like that are probably the reason there are actually people out there who come back and say how much they hated Europe.

Don't buy the Paris Visite Pass, either!

I had a few free minutes so looked up the websites.

www.vikingrivercruises.com

The new name for Elder Hostel is Roadscholars.

www.roadscholar.org

BTW, selecting several cities such as London, Paris, Venice and Rome would be an excellent plan. As for your wife's desire for a guided tour, these can be easily arranged in any city, and there'll be a variety of options from just a general get acquainted tour to more specific tours. Plus you'll have the opportunity to stay in the city, close to the sights and with a variety of restaurants and lodging options.

If you are considering such an itinerary,it'd would be best to fly open jaw. I'd fly into London, train to Paris and then train from Paris to Venice and on to Rome. This will be a long train trip, but they do have sleeping compartments, or you could break it up with an overnight stay enroute. You'll be able to at least view from the train windows some of the places you will miss. Much better than flying IMO. And,very much better than the Cosmos tour.

A typical day on the type of tour you are considering will be like this.....

Day 1
Shower, dress and pack and be at breakfast by 7am with bags outside your room.
8 am on the bus (8.30 if you are really lucky)
Drive to first destination.
Drive to lunch destination.
Fall asleep on the bus
Stop at designated shopping point. NB the guide will keep you all there until hell freezes over if there is a remote chance of a purchase so that he/she gets their %.
Maybe another stop at a site.
Drive to very ordinary hotel on outskirts of town. Attempt to eat almost inedible dinner. Go to room, discover pillows are dreadful and that housekeeping left hours ago.

Day 2 - repeat day 1.

Admittedly on a 24 day tour you will have some stops that are for more than just overnight.

That was my experience of a 4 day tour of the Greek countryside. We met some great people and had some laughs but we wouldn't do it again.

Back in the dark ages, I did this type of tour for my first trip to Europe and for the same reason that you gave. The problem with that was that I loved it all, so I'm still going back to see places in more depth. That would work better for me if I didn't love London so much that I spend my time and money making repeated trips there.

Good luck with whatever you do. It's all good, just some is better than others.

Agree with carolyn. For a first trip to Europe, a tour will be very busy, but you can do it and enjoy.

We have only done 32 tripe to Europe, 26 driving and 6 tours. Spain in August will be driving.

On the tours, up early, bags outside the door by 7am and perhape leave for the next destination by 9AM.

You are asking people who do not enjoy tours, but millions of people do and have a great time.

For a first time to Europe, a tour is not a bad idea.

For our 50th we took a tour of Scandinavia, even after all our driving trips.

So step back, read all the negitives about tours and then decide what YOU are more comfortable doing.

For tours, you can get a discount as we did in Scandinavia. www.cheapertravel.com

Here are a couple of threads on Cosmos tours that you may find helpful:
http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/cosmos-tours-410343-2.cfm

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/cosmos-tours-392001-2.cfm

You can find more info by simply typing "Cosmos Tours" in the search box above. (Note the dates of the threads because some are pretty old).

You may get a taste for each country, but the itinerary sounds to me like all you'll taste is vanilla. Even the French vanilla will taste like ordinary vanilla.

I take it, since you hadn't read the itinerary, and "all-inclusive" sounds good to you, and the "wife likes the idea of a tour", that neither of you wants to invest any time in researching what's of interest TO YOU in each of the cities on this or any other tour.

If I'm correct in my assumption, you're best taking a tour. Most of the posters on this forum would far rather travel on their own, but that necesitates looking into lodging, points of interest, dining, etc. Not a major task, but if it's not your cup of tea....

As a side thought: your proposed tour costs $6700 for two in 24 days, plus air (did you notice it's not included?). For the same cost, you could have a far more interesting self-tour.

Why? To me, Heidelberg is not interesting, and not typical of Bavaria. Lucerne...why there? so you can see what a mountain looks like? you probably know already. Avignon...highly overrated. Carcassone...nice big wall...the old city is VERY commercialized. An "orientation" of Bordeaux....does that mean, "That's Bordeaux out the left window"? And Poitiers...
....there are perhaps 400 Frenchier cities in France...who put it on the list, anyway?

Rather than tour versus self-tour, you could consider doing a tour for the Italian part for perhaps 10 days, and self-tour for 14 days. You could, for example spend more than 1 day on you own in London, then take the chunnel train to Paris on your own, then a few days in Paris on your own....you get the idea.

Some of the cities this tour visits never give me a "European" feel. Benelux countries and northern Germany are quite like US cities; only the sounds are different. Your Rhineland stay at Cologne, for example; except for the spoken German, you couldn't tell it from Cleveland.

As everyone's said, it really depends on what style of travel you're comfortable with.

If you want to pack lots of sights into a short time, then an escorted tour probably is for you - going it alone is fine, but I would actually say that it's not always cheaper.

When you are going from place to place by train travel in Europe, the costs still mount up - hotels, perhaps taxis from the station to your hotel, etc.

Saying that, you can often have some of your most memorable experiences when you are going it alone - you have to get to know your way back to the hotel, because no-one will guide you there, which makes you pay attention to your surroundings!

If you are considering booking independently, don't forget that there's a Thello night train between Paris and Venice that can be very convenient - saves you a night's hotel stay and you can travel in comfort.

You just have to think about what suits you - would you be confident enough to navigate your way around a train station and get on the correct train? Or does the thought of that fill you with dread?

Good luck!

How about a shorter guided tour and then a week or two in other places you would like to see. You could manage London on your own fairly easily.

I have taken 2 tours in my life. (well 3 if you count high school but that is best forgotten!) A 3 week tour of the capitals of Europe: London, Paris, Madrid, Rome and Geneva. We had 4-5 days in each and flew between them so it worked out pretty well - enough time to get the feel of the place. It usually included a half day siteseeing tour then we were on our own. The second was a tour of Ireland - 8 or 11 days I think. It was exhausting and I got sick. We did see a lot but I don't remember much - and I didn't get the 'feel' of Ireland because we really didnt' stay in one place long enough. Now I plan my own trips and enjoy the freedom of picking just the perfect hotel, a nice mix of a few key sites, some shopping, some cafes, etc. I did meet some fun people on the tours, but I wouldnt' do it again.

For a first time travler, which I was once, a guide is great. You don't need to figure out hotels or transport or whether to go to this end or that at a site to find the ticket line, or read a guidebook while trying to see what's in front of you, or know your way through a train station or even read a map. The trade-offs vs independent have been well expressed in this thread.

Perhaps the solution is a hybrid trip. Pick 3 targets: I would take London, Paris, and an escorted Itly tour of the big three: Venice, Florence, and Rome. Fly into London, have a hotel pre-booked, and then take any of the day escorted tours you can pick up from your hotel. There are a zillion restaurants, and restaurant guidebooks or aps are easy to find. Or do what you feel like on any given day. After all, they do speak English.

Prebook a Eurostar train to Paris, and there maybe have prebooked one of the Paris city packages from an agency, where you get the hotel and tours with guides. Leave a free day for yourself, probably at the end of the stay, maybe by adding a hotel night to the package. Then get to Venice (fly or train). In Venice, pick up a pre-booked Italy tour that guides you to and through the three mentioned cities, including transit. Fly home from Rome, maybe after a free day that you have arranged.

This will get you a much better grand tour, but, with all these parts, you should use a travel agent. Then you will do a LOT better than the original plan, and probably for similar money when all is done and said. Or, with a little luck, your travel agent may come up with an even better plan.

No, they don't need a travel agent! They need some good guidebooks and a bit of help here.

I agree. A travel agent would probably mess this idea up even more, as most travel agents haven't even been most of these places.

A travel agent is worse than useless. Either they will sell you the few (expensive) things that pay commission - or they will charge you by the hour to develop a trip that may not meet your needs - since you don;t seem to have specific requirements.

If you don;t want to do research at all - then perhaps a tour is the way to go. Just understand up front what it will really cost. the cost quoted is NOT all - inclusive - and yuou could well end up paying 50% more for all of the extras - never mind additional meals/activities,. etc.

The only thing I will add is that 24 days is a long time to be on a tour, especially if you have never toured before. I have done several tours, but 2 weeks is about my max. After that, people start getting on my nerves, and the stress of being on someone else's schedule starts wearing on me.

A good combo might be a couple of weeks on tour and a couple of weeks on your own afterward. (Sorry for the duplication if this has already been suggested--I just skimmed through the above responses). I always spent time on my own when I took a tour, and it provided a nice balance between the two.

Look, the anti tour brigade is out in force on this thread and for the most part, many of the cons are valid. But this particular board is geared towards independent travellers. Tours can work and can work ver well provided you do understand the cons but I'll try to give some pros. I've done a number of tours and for the most part they have delivered whjat I expected because I was forewarned and still had a great time.

You note you're in your 60's. This particular tour on Cosmos might be a bit too long and bear in mind Cosmos is a budget tour operator. I would look into something a tad shorter, perhaps leaving out Spain and would look at both Globus which is the same company or Trafalgar (but not their cost savers). Hotels will be somewhat better, somewhat more will be included, included meals will be marginally better. But Cosmos is very reputable, the hotels although in many cases especially in the big cities a bi out of the way but they will be clean with modern amenities.

As noted, baggage on a travel day goes out at 7 AM, you go down for breakfast. Breakfast varies depending on the country. In most countries of Southern Europe it usuall is very basic. Central and Northern European breakfasts are usually somewhat more substantial.

Onto the coach at 8 AM off you go. There will be a rest stop around 10 AM depdnding on the itinerary usually at what is akin to an interstate rest stop but could be in some small town. You use the facilities, have some coffee and are on the way again. Lunch stop again will be either at a rest stop on the motorway or again in some small town on the itinerary where the tour director (td) will suggest lunch places. (I usually went to McDonald's but that's me). Afternoon same thing. Rest stop about 3 PM and then onto the hotel.

Advantage of tour, you go right to the hotel...if you're doing it independently have to shlep baggage and find hotel. You get your room assigned, go to your room and your bagge is delivered. Score one for the tour.

On a travel day, if you're not in a big city, there will be an included dinner. Usualy very basic and very non Europeanized. If you're in a big city, there will be an optional. They're very standard. For example in Munich (don't now if your tour is going there) a stop at a beer hall (Hofbrauhaus) and then on to dinner. Are they more expensive than you can do yourself? Probably but transport is included with your tourmmates and many of them, at least for me, have been a lot of fun. They may throw in an illuminatin tour or something like that (a boat ride on the Seine if you're in Paris as an example).

Speaking of tourmmates, one of the nice things about these tours is you travel with tourmmates from other English speaking countries, not just fellow North Americans assuming you're from North America. You will bond with some members of the tour who might be from New Zealand or Australia and can make friends for life.

If you're in a big city, the next day no baggage will include the standard quick siteseeing tour of the city (and they are very standard). The afteernoon is either free for shopping, doing your own thing or there will be an optional tour. For example, and again it just cmes to mind, if you're in Berlin, they'll take you to see the remanants of the wall, the East German television tower (and you see the wrath of God on it and it dates back to the Cold War), the Reichstag (outside but a picture stop) and checkpoint Charlie Museum, standard stuff. Is it enough? No, of course not. But then the afternoon will be free for you to decide. Either more walking around on your own, shopping or an optional tour say to Potsdam. The td will arrange a pick up back to the hotel and generally in a big city either dinner will be on your own or another dinner optional.

Just think for a second. If you're not going to do a tour, what are your alternatives. Renting a car? Sure much more flexibility, unquestionably. But as you arrive in each new burgh at rush hour you will curse the traffic and trying to find your hotel and shlepping your baggage from the car to the room and finding a place to store your care fo the night. Trains? A great way to travel but again shlepping baggage, finding the hotel.

Like I said, some of the people here are naysayers on tours and that is their perogative. But as I said, if you know what to expect (yes some long days on the coach, yes optional tours, yes quick pass by places you might wish to stop) but good times ith pleasant tourmmates, clean hotels, no need to worry about baggage. Well the choice is yours.

Like I said, if it were me (and I'm about your age), I'd look for similar tour with Globus or Trafalgar a bit shorter (18 to 21 days). But, as I said, it is not the worst way to go no matter how others think (not that I wish for one second to be critical).

YOU reallt need to decide what you want - judging the pros and cons of each.

You know how you value the budget (figure it all out before you go), the desire to see specific sights, the comfort of having someone else deliver you to the hotel and have the bus waiting for you in the am.

For me, sleeping way later than 7 am is a key part of vacations. as is going to nice restaurants for dinner.

And the idea of sitting on a bus all day with a pack of "tourmates" would drive me mad. My two experiences of this were not good. One tour had a pair of honeymooners who were late - often 30 minutes or more for almost everything, as well as a noodlehead who managed to knock his wallet and passport into a canal in Amsterdam - and was outraged that the whole tour would not stay behind with him an extra day so he could have it replaced.

The other had 3 lone older ladies - who disliked one another - and who decided to cling to me - since they were afraid to do anything solo in their "free" time. It took me 5 days to finally get rid of all of them. And all they did was complain that everything cost too much - and not everyone spoke English.

I have taken a number of tours, so I am not anti-tour in all circumstances, but I would never take a tour like this. (Nor would I take advice on Europe from someone who eats at MacDonalds by choice in Europe!) I take tours when reaching the places I am interested in by public transport looks problematic, or when I want a break in the middle of a long trip - my last tour was Rick Steves to Bulgaria.

The alternatives to a tour include driving yourself, but are NOT limited to that. One of the great things about Europe is the excellent public transport system. For the cities in which the OP indicated interest - London, Paris, Venice, Florence, Rome - it would be foolish to rent a car.

The Cosmos tour sounds like Hell on wheels.

I took a Trafalgar tour w/my mother (at her insistance) and
it took me many years before I could control the shudder I
felt every time I saw a tour bus. As we careened along yet
another highway I was often the only one of the 50 or so
awake; even the guide slept.

Although obviously an independent traveller by choice, I have
taken two Rick Steves' tours and they were very worthwhile
and enjoyable.

IMHO, you get what you pay for and the extra money is well
spent for a tour doesn't turn into a trial.

I will accept some of the nasty comments for what they were...I did simply point out pros and cons and sort of agreed a 24 day Cosmos tour as described might end up being hell on wheels. I did suggest looking for alternatives.

As far as the McDonald's comment, take it for what it is worth. We were in Krakow (on a tour) with an excellent guide and after the included morning tour as described she was describing possible lunch stops (we were in the main square of Krawkow) getting ready for the optional tour. She described all the "wonderful" lunch stops and the "delicacies" available. All turned my stomach. So sarcastically I said, yeah yeah yeah. Where is McDonald's. She ssaid right around the corner but you don't want to eat there. I said why not. She said how do you know what you're going to get. I said I know darn well what I was gong to get.

So people went off to the local restaurants and many complained about the service and the quality of the food or lack thereof. I went to Mickey D and it was jammed with locals. I walked up and bvravely said I wanted a chessburger royal (which tasted surprisingly like a quarter pounder with cheese and even included the pickle, mustard and ketchup), and fried and a coke. Handed over myu 500 zlotys, got my change and you know something. It was one of the best and most efficiently served lunches on the whole trip.

You can all be snobs of how wonderful the restaurants are everywhere in Europe. Locals find their best lunches are served at McDonald's. Knock it and mock it all you want. You're simply wrong.

Oh by the way. Something learns quickly about being on holiday in many European towns. The cleanest facilities, you know when nature calls, is generally found at McDonald's (and Starbucks) and rarely hve I run into this garbage at McDonald's of toilet facilities are for customers only. When nature calls, you'll be glad to see the Golden Arches!

If you do get to Venice, there are passes for the water taxis. These passes can be bought and used for several days. Much easier and cheaper than individual rides. Just getting on a water taxi and going across the canal costs the full price. With the pass, you swipe it on the reader, and it notes you have checked in. The water taxis are patrolled, and the ticket is expensive if on the taxis without paying.

Actually, the cleanest toilets are usually in the poshest hotel. Just walk across the lobby.

True Thursday...but I've been thrown out trying to use a hotel rest room (usually in large cities). I have never been thrown out of a Mickey D or a Starbucks. (and there are so many that charge you too unfortunately).

I did a Cosmos tour about 25 years ago. It was not all bad; actually, I enjoyed it. There are some advantages to a tour - you do get to see many major sights in a very short space of time. For me, it just gave me a taste of what there was to see and experience, and find out what I wanted to return to. (And I did return, although I haven't made it back everywhere yet.) You don't have to worry if you don't speak the language, all that's taken care of for you. You get appropriate cultural information at appropriate times. And you get to meet other like-minded people. You don't have to worry about all the things independent travellers have to, like transportation, accommodation, meals - mostly it's all done for you. There is no dishonour in wanting someone else to do the work for you.

You do have to know what you're getting in to, though. As someone above already mentioned, many parts of the trip are extras you have to pay for, and even though they're optional, you would want to take part, because that's the whole reason you went on the trip in the first place. In some cases, if you decline an activity, your hotel might be in a quiet area where there is no other activity or means of leaving. (In my case, this was the case. Hotels are often out the back of nowhere to get a better price for accommodation.) That may or may not bother you. And all the extras add up to a not-so-budget trip. If you are going on a tour, consider if you might not want to splurge on a slightly better company to eradicate some of these issues.

Lavandula

<<The cleanest facilities, you know when nature calls, is generally found at McDonald's (and Starbucks) and rarely hve I run into this garbage at McDonald's of toilet facilities are for customers only. >>

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Too true.

This is actually true for local chains too (yes, Europeans DO have chain restaurants, it's not all mom-and-pop or single restauranteur operations!). Don't recall the particular pseudo-Subway place in Spain, but it came in handy with a four-year old.

xyz123; Made some good points of using a tour. I would only say on the six tours we have been on it has always been luggage out at 7am, breakfast at about 7:30am, but never leaving the hotel before 8:30 or 9am. We have enjoyed the tours we have been on.

Every tour is different, so that is our experience.

When you are on a bus with perhaps 40 plus people, it is no different than every day life. Most will be very friendly and then there will be a few 'laid back' or not as cooperative as one should be on a tour.

If you are a people person, you will have no problem, as you will gravite to friendly people.

I wish you the best in making your decision. But if one partner is not sure of independent travel, [your wife] do the tour.

Bottom line, you have come to the wrong forum to ask about a tour. We are basically independent travelers and make every attempt to discourage tours. You have heard very few good ideas about tours.

But as I have previously suggested, millions of people use tours every year.

The OP has no need for a pass in Venice. they are not staying in Venice - but on the mainland - and will have only a few hours there anyway.

We did a 23 day tour in October, 2001 of the British Isles with Globus and the first three replies to your post summed it up to a T. The guide never stopped talking, couldn't understand why the Irish and Americans had flags flying from every home, and told any of us who were talking to be quiet while she was talking. All the negatives listed above are true and we said never again for a bus tour.

We did do a trip to Switzerland with Untours, but they would not be suitable for the coverage you are planning. It did teach me that I too could plan trips and we had very sucessful ones in the Netherlands and France.

We have done only 2 guided tours, both with Smartours. They were to Israel/Petra and Vietnam/Cambodia. We did this because logistically it was easier to navigate. While we did enjoy both tours, it does get tedius having to be on a regimented schedule during what should be a vacation. I am not sorry we took these tours because it made getting from pint A to point B easier, but prior to those and upcoming this spring (Barcelona, Seville and Madrid) we are going independently. We find that the major cities in most of Europe have very good public transportation. Once we get to a particular site, we can book tours, i.e., the Colloseum. As other have said, I would either do a better quality, shorter tour with more time in each destination, or do it independently. We are also "budget" minded travelers.

Ronkala, we had the exact opposite experience in September 2001 with a 28-day UK Globus tour. Our guide was Irish and a former history teacher who was absolutely wonderful. My husband didn't want to drive on the "other" side of the road and doesn't know a lot of British history, so this worked quite well for us.

We were in London on September 11 and the docent told us of the attacks when we finished our Westminster Abbey tour. That was a downer for sure, but everywhere we went people were so kind when they heard our American accents. The Mayflower Steps in Plymouth were knee deep in flowers.

I didn't read all replies so if someone already said this, sorry.

My husband and I went on a tour. Covered a lot of miles, didn't see much except for Rome and Pompeii.

Tour guides get spiffs from every place they stop off so you can shop and so you'll get to see a fair share of "factories."
Plus, you can eat a lot of food that in no way resembles what you'll actually eat.

Your plan to just do a couple of big cities is a good one.

FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS TAKE TOURS. Around here, that extends to newbies

Welcome

Again, everything is a trade off. Are tours perfect? No, of course not and many of the cons noted here are quite true. But in many cases, tours can be great. Some of the things are sometimes exagerated. Yes, there are stops at places where the td and the coach driver get a kick back. So it's simple. Don't buy there. Sit down, take the offer of a free cup of coffee and clean facilities. Is time limited in various places? Absotively. Are included dinner gourmet? Of course not. But then again, some people don't necessarily go on a tour to eat a gourmet dinner every night. Some people's digestive systems can't take strange foods. To others, it's a delight. Some people are very interested in the history of the places they are visiting. On one of my tours, I learned a great deal about the history of northern Italy and the relationship with the Austrian tyrol from the td, something I might have missed doing it iindependently. The same is true of the perpetual battles between Italy and France regarding the area around the French Riveria and how much it resembles Italy. Then there was the Irish tour and the political correctness of the Irish td referring to Northern Ireland as the part of Ireland still "illegally" controlled by the British, good naturedly for the most part but...

Others might not like that. I try not to be dogmatic about these things (there was a time in my life I was). Nothing is purely good, nothing is purely bad.

The tours I have been on , on the whole, have been great and useful. The first tour I did was very hurried but it taught me where various places were in some of the big cities. My td taught me how to ride the metro in Paris, how to ride the buses in London. Others might not like that.

I can recite A to Z things you miss out on tours and many here have nailed them. And I agree; the 24 day cosmos tour might not be everybody's cup of tea for all the various reasons noted. But for anybody to say dogmatically tours suck period, well that isn't true. They can be a very good way of meeting people, of getting an introduction to different cultures and the like. People should have a somewhat more open mind about these things.

JMHO for whatever little it may be worth.

FRIENDS DON'T FORCE PEOPLE TO DO SOMETHING THEY MAY FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE DOING.

Let them decide and not be FORCED into something they may regret.

Xyz123 has a decent point: There are good tours and good aspects to ordinary tours. That's why I suggested doing the place to place independently and booking tours individually at the chosen destinations. That way there would be no lock in to what may turn out to be a single tour with no way out if it turns out less than satisfactory, while being sure that the hotels are your own choice of location and quality.

Has anyone noticed that the OP hasn't been back in 3 days?

We really appreciate all the info we have received. We are budget minded and like the simple life. We have stayed in just ok places and really nice ones too. We are usually not in the room very much. We have taken many cruises and here in the states road trips on occassion. We don't mind the ride and the countryside or cities are all interesting to us.
We know we would not see a whole lot in any one city. And maybe not a key place in some of them. As has been said it could just be a drive by. And we are ok with that also.
We are not big in to the night life scene. So being out at night a lot is not important. Some nice meals out of the hotel and back to get rest for the next day would be ok.
We are active to a point. I use a cane to help me get around and I do real good with it. And I can not lift a lot so having the luggage moved around would be great.
I do have a concern about the bus. Will they have a working toilet on the bus? And I see some companies advertise wi-fi. Do they all have it or just a few.
I took a look at Steves tours and they look great but too active for me. They rate the tours as to how strenuous which is very helpful for me. I can walk for a while and then need to rest. And I can do hills. We went to Japan for 6 weeks a couple years ago and stayed with a friend. If it was not for her, her car, her knowledge of how to navigate around the country and the fact we did not speak any language we would have had a horrible time. But it was great. Of course we had a couple places to stay to use as a base before going south to Hiroshima or north to Nikko.
And we know that there are optional tours and not much is included. And that they will cost whatever they charge. We have cruised a lot and have taken tours at the dock. We have pre-booked them before the cruise or gotten them wherever we stopped. And it was all good.

If my wife felt more comfotable with driving or even taking the train I would plan the trip. I agree with you all that it is not hard. But with the limitations I described it would be more of a challenge and take the fun out of it for both of us.
At least that is what my wife tells me. And all the time I usually drive so I don't get a chance to see as much as I would like to anyway.

The Cosmos tour is a 24 day tour that originates in London and ends in London. The Grand European with London 2013-June 12, 2012 departure.

http://www.tourvacationstogo.com/cosmos_tours.cfm?npid=33899
Cost is $3472 plus air. We live in Ft Lauderdale. I saw that we can get non-stop flights to London so that would be great.
No layovers, less chance of getting luggage lost. I figure around $1400 each for air.

Another alternative would be a cruise. We would get a taste of Barcelona and then Venice staying in each for a few days plus the cruise. We would miss out on Paris and London but we could do that on another trip. Sure the excursions and all would cost extra but it would be the same if we did the bus tour. I would upgrade to a balcony or at least outside.

20 DAYS from $2699
APRIL 18 - MAY 7, 2013
MAY 12 - 31, 2013
FREE AIR*
Your journey begins with your overnight flight to Barcelona.
After arrival in Barcelona you are transferred to the quaint,
seaside village of Lloret de Mar for your included three night
stay. Next you are transferred to the pier to board the 85,700-
ton Carnival Legend. Your 13 day cruise takes you to Palma de
Mallorca, Marseille, Olbia, Livorno, Rome, Naples, Messina,
Dubrovnik and Venice. Upon debarking you collect your
luggage, clear customs and then transfer to your First Class
(3-star) Venice Lido hotel for your included three night stay.
Finally you are transferred to the airport, and return home with
wonderful memories of your Grand Mediterranean cruise tour.

I look forward to hearing from anyone who would like to give input on these ideas and again we do appreciate the input but don't wish to get people upset with our planning. Just looking for some others opinions!!
Thanks,
Stu and Susan

Floridastu: That helps. W/ the info you've given us about yourselves and your travel style - I still wouldn't recommend those land tours. Really fast paced and expensive for what you get.

But the Med cruise sounds just up your alley. Day tours in the different ports of call but a leisurely 'home' back on the ship. I don't usually recommend cruises to 'see' Europe, but you will get a taste of several areas along the Med plus a nice stay over in Venice. That would be a very good option for you IMO . . .

. . . And you wouldn't have to touch your luggage for days . . .

On the land tours you have to pack and put the bags in the hall almost every single morning . . .

The cruise sounds like a much better option. It would be nice if you could arrange to arrive a day early in Barcelona so you could leisurely walk around there. From Naples I would suggest going to the Amalfi Coast if that excursion is offered. It is breathtaking. The Cosmos tour would be very taxing...you'd really have to keep up with the group and being with the same people for 24 days could be a challenge. We were fortunate on our 2 tours to be with a very compatible group. Go and enjoy.

floridagal2; You gleened information from all these replys and are now doing what best for you both.

Have a great trip.

Stu,

On a bus tour you'll get comfort stops every 2 to 3 hours. The bus may or may not have a toilet, but they would not want anyone to use it unless in an emergency.

With the two options you outlined, and considering that (1)you have been on a cruise vacation before,
(2)you really do not want to miss out on London and Paris, and
(3)your wife seems to want to try this bus tour, because it gives both of you a glimpse of many different places within budget,
I'd say go with the land tour. It may be taxing, but you and your wife will be happy because it satisfied your curiosity toward many places you know their names by heart. Also, on a land tour you can take a leisure walk in the evening near the hotel's neighborhood without worrying about missing the ship.

I understand why many experienced travelers spoke against it, because most of them are capable of plotting their own routes and moving around by various transportation means. But it is your vacation, your time, your budget, and your own satisfaction to meet.

I am not at all a fan of cruises (it totally changes a place when the cruise ships are in port) but given your situation and your previous experiences with cruises it is at least a better option than the big bus tour.

However, I would pick the cruise carefully. There are a number of guidebooks available on Mediterranean cruises (try your library or just hang out at Barnes and Noble with a cup of coffee) and the travel magazines often have cruise issues. cruisecritic.com is an excellent resource, and a place to "meet" other people taking the same cruise.

I notice that this cruise puts you in a "Venice Lido" hotel - that means you will have to take a boat to reach the main part of Venice. Lloret de Mar is at least 75 kms outside Barcelona, although closer to the airport. Several of the ports sound less than exciting, too.

Have you cruised with Carnival before? Based on what I've read, they wouldn't be my choice. But you'll get better advice at cruisecritic.com and on the Cruise board here.

"Has anyone noticed that the OP hasn't been back in 3 days?"

It's enough that the OP set the seed. Threads grow on their own

Stu and Susan, I'm European and hate the idea of either a coach tour or a cruise but I have done a river cruise in Europe and loved it. Ok everyone on the thing was +60 but we went to a bunch of different towns.

I didn't use these guys but I saw this site recently, maybe of interest http://www.vikingrivercruises.co.uk/rivercruises/europe-rhine-amsterdam-2013/datesprices.aspx

http://www.avalonwaterways.com/Cruise-Vacations/Rhine-River/

it may interest

I cruised with carnival before. They are sort of like Cosmos in a way namely more or less a budget cruise line competing with Norwegian. It was fine; besides unlike Norwegian, Carnival serves coke products not pepsi.

Good point bilboburgler - a river cruise would be a much better intro to Europe than a Med cruise. Amsterdam to Budapest, perhaps....

I agree with most that it's just too much bus time, packing and re-packing suitcases.

I also understand why you would like a tour.

I love the River Cruise idea. So many different ones, many offer extensions to other places after the Cruise, one doesn't have to worry about bathroom stops or packing and re-packing luggage. Or bus drivers that drive too fast

I would also think the scenery would be nicer on a River Cruise.

One could even fly open jaw and combine two of them. Now THAT would be fun!

A River Cruise is on my bucket list, probably Viking, but I know there are some others that are good.

I like the idea of a river cruise, considering your previous experiences on cruises and travel needs. One way a Mediterranean cruise differs from Caribbean cruise: the port cities for the major European cities they serve are often an hour away, so a lot of time is wasted debarking and traveling to the city of interest. A river cruise would position you much closer to what you actually want to see, and probably give you more time to see it.

A bus tour might still be a good idea for you. But not THAT bus tour. In an attempt to include so many places, that particular itinerary wastes too much time on bus travel and gives little quality time visiting a place. Too many of the places that were mentioned would be simple drive-bys. Too may of the days would require 4-6 hours on a bus.

To my mind, you might choose a shorter (14 days?) bus tour that covers less countries/cities in a bit more detail, and then add on visits on your own before and after the tour in the cities where the tour begins and ends. This is similar in concept to what you propose for the Mediterranean cruise. However on a bus tour, you will experience more of the places you are visiting (even if through the window of a bus), while on a Mediterranean cruise you will experience more of a innocuous cruise ship.

Agree that a Carib cruise is not a great idea. Many cities are more than an hour from the ports they serve - and you will often get very limited time in any sights - and a major cost.

A river cruise puts you right in the center of the cities you are visiting - and you can take the tour from the boat - or just explore the town yourself if you want. That also gives you the opportunity to see one additional city at either end of the river cruise to stay several days - doing day tours if you want - without a lot of research/work.

After arrival in Barcelona you are transferred to the quaint,
seaside village of Lloret de Mar for your included three night
stay.>>

quaint seaside village? possibly once. Now there are over 100 hotels just like this one:

http://www.ghthotels.com/en/hotel-costa-brava/hotel-lloret-de-mar/hotel-aquarium-spa/home

then there are the places that you stop at:

Palma de Mallorca, Marseille, Olbia, Livorno, Rome, Naples, Messina, Dubrovnik and Venice - for most of them there will be a substantial time taken actually to get to the place named. in Rome, for example, you dock at Civitavecchia - which isn't in Rome at all.

River cruises, OTOH, do mostly at least put you where you want to be. Saga run some which are aimed at over 50s - http://travel.saga.co.uk/holidays/river-cruises.aspx

and as virtually everything is included, they are pretty good value too.

I would like to thank everyone for their comments.
Susan and I have decided on the trip from Legendary Journeys.
We will arrive in Barcelona and spend the three nights in Lloret Del Mar. It is about 50 miles from Barcelona. They have cars to rent really cheap or we can use a train or bus.
They will serve up breakfast and dinner. If we are out (which will probably be the case for dinner) we will just miss it.

Then the carnival legend (not a bad ship,,have been on better) will take us to the cities listed above. We know we will have to take excursions to go into cities or visit sites and they are extra cost. When we get to Venice we will stay at a hotel in Venice itself, not on the outskirts. I opted to upgrade the hotels.

For our first taste of the mediterranean, not necessarily Europe, we feel this will be a good start for us. I upgraded the cabins to balcony, each day breakfast and lunch is included, added in a extra charge for cabin and hotel selection due to my limited ability for climbing stairs or getting to a elevator (upon advise of travel agent). I am slow but steady!!! On another trip we may do the coach or river cruise but this will be a great start.

The total cost including air, trip insurance, transfers, hotels, cruise,taxes comes to $8140.00. For 20 days that is about $400 a day for the two of us. Then we will have the tips on the ship and any excursions plus whatever we don in Venice and Spain.

Once we get a taste of the area we will probably plan ourselves for future trips as I have heard others do.

Again, both Susan and I are grateful for all the comments.
Thanks again!!

I doubt you want to take a car into Barcelona. No train. The bus takes about an hour - see www.sarfa.com.

Good luck.... I still think the river cruise is a much better bet, but please post a trip report when you get back.

Thanks for the trip on the car into Barcelona Thursdaysd.
Do you reccomend traveling about around the other areas by car near Lloret De Mar?

Sorry, when I visited Barcelona I found enough to do IN Barcelona. Maybe this thread will help?
http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/5-night-itinerary-outside-of-barcelona-suggestions.cfm