The problem with German is not really case so much - that's complicated but common sense often ferrets out meaning whether you're speaking or listening.

Vowels are a problem. Front rounded vowels and short/long variants create a lot of confusion when you mispronounce them.

Word order is a big problem. Hard to follow sentences you hear until you've gotten very accustomed to sentence elements appearing like this:

"Can I tomorrow with you into the city go?"

Vocabulary tends to be fairly easy since English is Germanic and there are so many cognates. German pulls heavily from French vocabulary as well.

I don't think it's much different from learning Italian or Spanish or other European languages overall. And with your language learning experience you'll likely find it much easier than most people do.

For English speakers, here is a table provided by the US Department of State Foreign language institute.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Language_Learning_Difficulty_for_English_Speakers
You find that French and Dutch are in category I while German is in category II.
You will find the estimated time to proficiency is extremely optimistic. The time required assumes you can spend 25hrs studying with 4hrs dedicated time -- not something you can achieve easily if you are still working.
If you are already familiar with case based languages, you already have grammatical understanding of how the article and adjective endings change depending on the role of the noun - subject, direct object, indirect object. The tough part is what role the noun plays since it is not one to one mapping with English and which ending they take depending on the existence and the type of articles used with the case. Germany can decipher what you are trying to say even though you might have mixed up cases. You will be stunned by the variations the adjectives can take. All I can say is that there are many other worse languages.
The word order does not change much in English, while in German, it changes depending on the type of the clause – subordinate or not and whether element other than subject starts the sentence. This gets quite chore to get the feeling in presence of prepositions, reflexive verbs, modal verbs, and separable prefix verbs.
Additionally, German words have significantly limited scope than comparable English words. Where in English you can use the same word in different context, the German use different words and thus require learning significantly more words to deal with different context.
e.g.
open a door, open an account, open a page of a book
memory of the visit, having a good memory, computer memory

What is your native language then, if not English?

"English and French are by far my best two languages as I use both on a daily basis for all sorts of business and social transactions. "

I would imagine that anyone having success with Dutch could tackle German. I find the pronunciation quite simple, in general. Word order is a challenge but its logic grows on you.

I avoid languages with cases, they drive me nuts. It's just more to learn. I am surprised a language like German hasn't modernized in that regard. I think English had cases at one time but that was hundreds of years ago.

Thus, I didn't like Greek or Czech or German.

However, in terms of usefulness, where do you think you might like to go? I would suggest Czech to you, the pronunciation isn't that difficult, if you learn the alphabet, it is pronounced pretty much like it is spelled, I like that. It does have cases, though, and some words without vowels in syllables, but you can learn that, it isn't hard. And with the growth of tourism and business in the CR, I would think that a million times more useful than Portuguese (unless you want to go to Brazil, of course). I imagine German would be useful, too.

However, Czech is similar to Polish in a lot of ways, so once you have one of those, the transition while traveling isn't difficult.

You must be pretty good with languages if you can actually understand a newscast after only 1.5 years.

I agree with Christina about your fluency in languages. I am fairly conversant in both French and German, but still have a hard time understanding both when they are spoken at a normal conversational speed.

I also agree that if you can tackle Dutch, you would probably do well with German, especially the vocabulary.

For me, where I might want to go would affect my decision.

I think Italian would be the easiest for you to pick up, since the grammar is fairly easy and the vocabulary is similar to Spanish.

If you can, you might consider attending one of the language immersion schools in the country whose language you choose to study. For example, one of my friends attends such a German school in Bamberg, and loves it.

Bon chance!

English is my first language, but I know Strunk & White would find fault with my overuse of ellipses and parenthetical expreesions (to name two). I still learn new words here & there... I'd forgotten what "pusillanimous" meant until a recent book and "wimple" and "auto da fe" were two totally new words for me in a book on the Spanish Inquisition.

Brazil, Portugal, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, even lusophone Africa; all interest me, so where I want to go wouldn't likely be a deciding factor.

I enjoy reading about personal experiences with language study, so thank you all. This is great! Daniel

Didn't you learn that from Voltaire? (auto da fe)

I learned German at the age of two - found it easy.

I started to learn it in four years of high school German and found it methodical and logical. Traveled to Germany during high school and returned for a month a few years later. Took another three semesters in college as a refresher.

I love German, even though I find myself getting slower at it as I am away from it longer.

Have had some exposure to French and Spanish, but I struggle with them ... they arrive in my head as shards, not as full concepts.

For most people, I think there's a division between romance languages and Germanic languages, like people who are good at algebra but struggle with geometry (or vice versa), or people who find math simple but literature hard.

Just my opinion, of course.

Still struggling with my native English, but enjoy dipping into Frederick Bodmer's The Loom of Language , even if opinions are divided -

http://www.amazon.com/The-Loom-Language-Approach-Languages/dp/039330034X

http://ielanguages.com/blog/the-loom-of-language-an-approach-to-the-mastery-of-many-languages/

http://ask.metafilter.com/124042/Loom-of-Language

With my deteriorating hearing the first word I cotton on to is often the last in a sentence - so perhaps I should have another crack at German

I just had lunch today with an old college friend...we're in our '70s (yikes!) Her parents were German who came here (US) in the '30s...and because of the political climate she never spoke German (tho her parents continued to do so at home.) She's a very intelligent person, but nonetheless , did not have an easy time studying German in college...and doesn't feel she is fluent at all. Such a sad , missed opportunity.

But we had lunch at the Cafe Sabarsky in the Neue Gallerie in NYC.... and she knew how to pronounce everything... which I did not.. so I guess something stuck. Mit schlag is the extent of my German! I really envy those of you who are facile in several languages.

If you know Dutch the word order and much of the vocabulary will be familiar to you when you start German. I speak both and seem to store them in roughly the same place in my head - indeed much of the German I know has overwritten my Dutch and I now make a conscious effort to groom both by reading media websites in both languages in my free time (which isn't much these days). I also find it hard to switch between German and Dutch rapidly, more so than Ger >Eng or NL > Eng, until I've been with the other for a few hours, which to me speaks to how close you will find the two when learning German.

I can't compare learning them formally as Dutch is one of the languages I started life with, but Dutch, having only vestiges of case left, has to be easier than German. Except maybe the pronunciation (can you say 'Scheveningen', anyone?).

Lavandula

If you are facile at learning languages (some people are hopeless - either because they are afraid of making mistakes - or they just don't intuit connections) you should have no trouble with German. Although the sentence structure can take a while to sort out.

As for the multiple variations of German - that can be a whole other field of study. (I didn't get Gruss Gott the first time I heard it in a small village in Bavaria.)

I applaud your taking languages so seriously. I travel to so many different places that I have given up trying to learn more than about 10 or 12 polite phrases in each one - and just count on my high school and college language lessons to come back. (I have found that desperation makes things pop up really quickly.)

I've been in the process of learning Germany for a couple of years. Because I don't get to Germany as often as I'd like, it's a slow process and somewhat succesful.

When I go to Germany, people can understand me. This is good but they insist upon answering my questions and this is where trouble begins.

I practice with Speak German with Michael Thomas. Mr Thomas only answers the questions he wants to answer in the way he wants me to learn. Random German people don't play along.

On our last trip, we went to a region where there wasn't a lot of English speaking people and I learned quite a bit. I felt I was ready because I could use sentences with 2 verbs. That seems to make people think I know more than I really do. That's okay, a couple of my landlords were very kind to help me improve.

I took German in high school but didn't remember much by the time I went to Germany. I can carry on a small conversation in Spanish. My French is best left unspoken.

German comes so much easier once you know Dutch mostly due to the similar word order and verbs/words.  Your Dutch would serve as instant cheat notes in your brain.  
Like Lavandula, I used my childhood Dutch as a crutch to learn German but over the years I can't help getting them occasionally mixed up while talking.  Grammatically German is only a bit more complicated just like Italian is a bit more complicated than Spanish.   People in Holland however would give you a strong disapproving look if you accidentally inject a German word while talking in Dutch, very unacceptable.

Hi Daniel_Williams,

I think you have two huge advantages over the average learner -- you already have two or more languages under your belt (I've heard that the second foreign language is a big hurdle), and you seem to be fairly young.

I'm an American. I studied French throughout school and was fairly conversant up until my 50s, when I decided to live in Germany. I started trying to learn German, then, at 53 years old. I'm finding it really difficult.

Yes, there are so many obstacles to speaking, and I always want to get the cases right, the gender right, the verb tenses right, and the word order right . . .. by the time the sentence is all right in my head, my listener has already walked two blocks away from me! I'm slowly getting over that and making myself speak even though I'm butchering the poor German language.

I'll just add that, it's not only the cases that are confusing, but it's also the declination of the adjectives. Geeeez.

I suggest you read "The Awful German Language" by Mark Twain. Here's a link:

http://www.bergerwerbung.at/files/Potpourri/The_Awful_German_Language_by_Mark_Twain.pdf

s

I took German for about 8 years, after studying Latin for about 8 as well, and found it logical and systematic. That said, it was always harder for me than French and Italian, especially with the variations in conversational German - I can read it OK, but depending on where I am, I may or not be able to hold a decent conversation other than basics, especially if someone is speaking at a normal rate, whereas with French and Italian I can be fairly sure I'll be able to banter on no matter what region I'm in (though haven't been to Corsica or Sicily, for example - I might fail miserably there). German is certainly easier than Russian or Arabic, though - I found them enormously difficult, especially Arabic, as I had absolutely no linguistic reference points (plus I started learning them much later in life than the other languages I studied, which is always a barrier IMO).

But since you have the facility (and yes, some just do and some just don't), I think you'll be fine with it, especially with your background in Dutch.

I too learnt German at school the old-fashioned grammar way, and it takes a good while. I wouldn't claim to be particularly fluent in active speaking (I wouldn't trust myself to negotiate a business deal beyond fairly straightforward shopping), but passive understanding is still pretty good. What's more, I found it invaluable in understanding written Dutch, once I'd understood some basic transliterations.

However, German has the complexities that Dutch has (largely but not totally) abandoned, in terms of gender, cases, conjugations and declensions, as well as fairly strict formalities in sentence order: participles at the end of the sentence (so that you can be waiting quite a while for the operative word in the verb), always time reference before place. Not to mention the mysteries of particles (those little words that are not quite adverbs but change the mood of a sentence, where in English we might slip in a whole phrase like "you know", or "I suppose", or "after all" - I think the Dutch "er" might have a similar function). But you have a head start on some of those through Dutch.

I studied German for two years in my twenties. Maybe it is because I did not study it in my younger years at school, but twenty years on, I have forgotten most of it. I test myself on this when I read reviews on Tripadvisor in German, lol!!

Italian and French are a different matter. I have been exposed to the Italian language all my life - studying it for five years at school, doing many holidays in Italy, and watching Italian TV every single day (have no choice because of my hubby lol, he watches Italian news every single day, plus films, festivals etc - his father had studied at the Accademia delle Belle Arte in Rome for quite a few year, and they even talked some Italian at home when he was young).

So when in Italy I can understand mostly everything, and can talk back (maybe not as easily as English or Maltese - but Italians that I talk to always comment that I speak good Italian. So if you had to ask my opinion, I would say it would be nice to learn some Italian, it is easy to pronounce and without many words with letters that have no sound, and the grammer is not too complex. It also has a nice romantic sound - but maybe that is my opinion because I have always been exposed to it.

I learned French during my senior school and sixth form, and after that was not exposed to it much (I even had stopped reading in French) - except for reviews on Tripadvisor or isolated holidays in France. I still manage to understand reviews when I read them, and am able to converse very lightly when on holiday, but when they start hurrying too much in talking - then I am stuck. I can say that I used to understand them much more and converse in French 20 years ago - maybe it also has to do with my ageing brain, lol. However, I can safely say that I know French much more than German for sure - maybe studying it for a much longer tim e has to do with it. French also came back to me when I was helping my kids with homeworks etc.

English, I can say, is like a first language to me as is Maltese. I attended school in a convent where at least half the nuns were English, and we were only allowed to converse in English at school - even our Maltese, Italian or French lessons were conducted in English.

Lastly, they say Maltsse is very hard to learn, but I wouldn't know since it is my mother tongue.

But I you had to ask me which, in my opinion, is the hardest of the five languages I learned, I would say German, due to its complextity in grammar - but if you studed Dutch, you would find it easier than me for sure.

But in my opinion, will never master any language well unless you are exposed (and keep on exposing yourself) to the language. There is a lot of difference between learning a language and understanding and talking it fluently - even a particular region, like say in Italy, many would have their own dialect, idioms etc. that would differ from one region to another. In some places, you would not even think it is the Italian language. For instance in Sicily, many locals do not bother to conjugate verbs, but just use the infinitive all the time. But dialects etc are talked in many other languages I guess - knowing the proper language is what matters. Again, it is very hard to master a language properly unless you are exposed to it, and making sure that you hear it like on tv and read in that language continuously. Studying it helps a lot of course.

For me Spanish, Italian and. French have been much easier to "get into"
Took only one course in German. ...not sure if I wish to continue( tend to agree with MT)
Slavic languages are even more difficult IMO.

I was fluent in German by the age of 16. I took other languages briefly in school but had an affinity for German and always found it logical and easy to learn. I did study what was referred to as "High German" which is more easily understood in Austria than in Germany IME.

These days I get out my copy of Rosetta Stone a couple of months before I travel and it helps me refresh the basics.

I also have an easy time with Italian, perhaps due to my love of Italy and growing up with Italian being spoken by some relatives at home. I took one semester of French but never cared for it so never pursued it further.

Anna_Galea makes a good point. It is constant exposure that keeps language knowledge alive. But, as ever, the more you know, the more you realise you don't know. I have a degree in French and German and a fair knowledge of the history and literary culture, but I always feel there are more sub-texts and nuances there than I'll never get. And there just isn't time to keep up with everything!

I've really enjoyed reading each and every reply.

StCirq, kfusto, danon, nytraveler, Kandace_York, annagalea, DAX, lavandula, Gwendolynn, swandave2000, farrermog, Christina, quokka --I love your gamut of perspectives.

Russ, Greg, PatrickLondon, lincasanova-- Word order sounds pretty similar to Dutch, where you have to think about a number of things you describe: separable prefix verbs (my nemesis, although I'm beginning to get used to them), modal verbs, subordinate clauses, reflexive verbs and how they affects word order. Time before manner before place too. "Can I tomorrow with you into the city go?" would be the order in which I'm used to having to think in Dutch too.

PatrickLondon-- Dutch has a few of these particles I think too. The words "wel", "maar" and "even" affect the mood, if we're talking about the same thing.

So, there definitely seems commonality between German & Dutch in sentence structure, which would make the process easier. tom 18-- I find the Germanic similarity of words between Dutch & English has helped me build my vocabulary rapidly, and I imagine the same to be true in German. Yet I wonder a bit that when visiting Holland last June why a number of Dutch people who speak English & took German described German as "hard". (Maybe DAX or Lavandula might have an idea?)

Lsky-- I love your sentences "When I go to Germany, people can understand me. This is good but they insist upon answering my questions and this is where trouble begins. " I felt the same visitng Holland sometimes.

Thanks... I'm loving this post & the replies.

>>Yet I wonder a bit that when visiting Holland last June why a number of Dutch people who speak English & took German described German as "hard". <<

Probably precisely because it is so similar - it's more confusing! One thing (going off at a tangent) I have noticed from the crop of Scandinavian detective series we've been having in the UK in recent years, is that I could catch some words in Swedish and Danish because they were similar to Dutch (more so than to German).

>>"When I go to Germany, people can understand me. This is good but they insist upon answering my questions and this is where trouble begins. " I felt the same visitng Holland sometimes.<<

Oh yes, I was caught out last time I visited Amsterdam, and went to buy something in HEMA. Everything was fine until my card wouldn't work, and the desk clerk rattled off some advice in Dutch which I couldn't follow, and when I gave up, she said (rather grumpily in the Amsterdam way, and in perfect English) - "Well, why didn't you say you spoke English?".

I'm here in Germany and trying like crazy to learn but believe that without immersion - and someone to ask a million questions - learning is close to impossible. The classes I've taken are usually of limited use. A German boyfriend would be perfect. I do find that reading is easier than speaking (forget understanding) because many words are similar to English but also because they are often strung together to form a new word or "thought." The word can often be broken down to derive meaning. I'm also finding that letters in German sometimes replace other letters in English (durst = thirst). And nouns are capitalized so that helps. Learning words in a context also helps(the back of a food package is easy for me to understand because I know what it is likely to be saying). I have fun figuring languages out and finding connections (was an English major so words and grammar thrill me), but I'll never be able to utter more than very simple phraes. And so many just speak English back to me instead of speaking German VERY slowly so I can hear the words better. But if you enjoy figuring out languages, go for it. Of course, then, there are the dialects. At least the Germans will help you with the language. I have a great time with the Bofrost guy - his English is limited and we laugh a lot as I try to speak German. Once I told my landlord I was going back to the states because, in German I said, "my mother is sick (meine Mutter ist kranke)." He looked at me - then laughed and said, "Oh! German!" I felt like such a doof but these people are so good-natured about it all that I'm not too embarrassed and keep trying. And BTW, I hooked up my internet connection with all the instructions in German. Took two very serious tries but - oh! - the victory when I finally connected!!! Good luck.

My sons all learned German at school here in the Netherlands. They all hated it and dropped it as soon as was allowed. They found it very difficult, mainly because of the declension issue. Word order wasn't a problem because of their Dutch, and the fact they are bi-lingual helped with learning other languages.
One picked up French really easily and is now learning Arabic, but still hates German. The other two did OK at French - better than me.

The oldest is now pretty fluent in spoken German - due to his job. When he started as mate on a charter ship the groups were nearly all German school groups. He had to explain sailing and safety to them, and ate with them so his German came on in leaps and bounds. Now he has his own ship and his guest are still mostly Germans.
He is also now married to a German, and converses with his in-laws in German, though they say it is not truly correct German he is perfectly understandable, and only the worst language snobs (of which there are plenty in Germany I understand) would object to some of his German.

Plenty of Dutch people find German very hard, some think they speak it well, but don't and a few manage to master it. Some words are the same but have a very different meaning - doof is a prime example.

I've never attempted to learn it. I learned some when testing my kids, but it isn't a language that appeals much - though if you want to travel in Central and Eastern Europe German can be useful to have.

Daniel, I think because German is gramatically more complicated than Dutch and English (more cases with more specific changes). Obviously English is the easiest Germanic language to learn. That said you have a huge advantage due to your exposure to the similar vocab and reversed word order (though here and there you'd find some subtle word order differences in daily expressions).

I sometimes wonder when and why the germanic word order changed in English.

Aside from linguistic features, there is also a certain amount of rivalry between the Dutch and Germans, and German does not have the prestige for the Dutch that French has. French is to some degree still the international language of diplomacy and still has that cachet. I think this does not make it simple to learn German for the Dutch because of some latent negative feelings associated with it. In some cases feelings still run back to WWII, but that is changing slowly. The Dutch also have a rude name for the Germans, 'mof', which is like the British 'jerry' (sp?), but 'mof' is actually a much older word than WWII. But the Germans give as good as they get IME - plenty of times I have been the butt of jokes about me driving a caravan and blocking the road, because this is the clichéd image Germans have of the Dutch, holidaymakers with caravans who are inconsiderate on the road (crazy because I grew up in Australia and have never been on a caravanning holiday in Europe!).

Lavandula

Everyone here seems to agree that you need to be exposed to a language to leean it - and most importantly, understand and speak it well. as PatrickLondon commented, even if you have a degree in a language, you would still find out that there is still always more to learn.

It would take years and years of exposure to really master a languag. The easiest way to learn is when one has a parent, for example German, and lives in say England, or those who continuously talk to a relative/friend in that language. Those who go and live in a particular country and spend years mixing with the locals, in my opinion, have the best chance of speaking and understanding the language perfectly.

My cousin studied Italian at school up to fifth form, married an Italian guy and went to live in Italy. She has been living there for years now, more than 20 years in fact, and she literally speaks like a local, is totally knowledgable of all the sayings etc, is extremely fluent as much as any Italian person, knows and talks the dialect of the area, and even works as a translater with a company - Italian to English. She is not even English or Italian, but Maltese, so she also knows her native language, but being brought up talking bi-lingual from birth, and studied English, besides Maltese from pre-school, I can say that she knows all three like they were her first language.

You can know all the grammar etc in your head, but when it comes to a good long conversation, you tend to get stuck(. (I am not referring to just asking a common short question, like when one is on vacation)., You know that you are really good in a language, when you feel you are not focusing and straining to understand what the other person is saying.

Of course, the more you study a language, the more you automatically get involved in it, as you need to read more books and talk it more whilst studying it. It also makes you want to go to that country or area where it is talked to try out your language skills and to talk to people who know the language. You also tend to watch tv and read more in that particular language. Continuous exposure would then be the cherry on the cake, really essential for good communication skills.

Personally, I would prefer to learn fewer languages, and master them really really well, before moving on to study another language, But that is only my opinion, others might prefer to learn the basics (IMO studying a languages for a couple of years is basic), like to get by when travelling to a particular country. But that might become a bit confusing whilst studying, as a Fodorite remarked, (regarding German and Dutch) - being similar in some areas but still different might be more of a disadvantage than an advantage as at the back of your head you would be thinking of the other language.

Now, the question posed by the OP, on whether German is easy to learn - those who have been exposed to German or are drawn to that particular language, would say it is easy (just as I would say the same for English (say that to an Italian - many find it so hard to learn the English Language) - so it all depends on how eager you are to learn a particular language, and how much time and dedication you are willing to give to learning it. It will take a lot of time (and years for sure to master it well),, but if you are so eager to learn it = then go for it.

>>I sometimes wonder when and why the germanic word order changed in English.<<

Small matter of three hundred years or so of law and government being controlled by French-speakers: which is one of the reasons why there are many clear indicators of social class and status in English, showing whether you're using "Queen's English" or "Anglo-Saxon". (Also things like words for meat relating to French origins (beef, mutton), while the words for the animals they came from relate to Germanic origins (cow, sheep): that tells you all about the primary form of contact each group had with the animal concerned!).

hetismij-- I always appreciated your advice on my recent trip to Holland and I equally thank you for the interesting perspective on your children's take on learning German.

Lavandula-- I'd wondered if these reservations remained about learning German, so I appreciated your perspective.

Shanna-- I know what you mean about lacking immersion and a boyfriend helping! My French didn't reach a level of fluency and comfortability until I lived in Quebec and dating Quebecois definitely helped too!

DAX,PatrickLondon-- I've wondered too about how or whether the Germanic word order switched for English-speakers. If I had the time and ability to read Old English and Middle English, I think I'd find the changes in the language fascinating. I've wondered if Frisian and Scots retain the Germanic word order too?

Anna_Galea-- I know what you mean about mastering few languages and learning them really well; I worry too about spreading myself too thin. My most recent sally into Dutch means I've emphasized Spanish less of late and consequently I find myself searching for words more than ever in the tongue of Cervantes. However, I find it borderline thrilling when a new language (such as Dutch of late) opens a door to new TV shows, books, songs, culture and even simply the different means of expression that otherwise would be closed. I want to be more proficient but I just love opening those new doors too!

Mark Twain called it "the awful German language" and claimed that there were 16 ways of saying "the" in German.

I've studied German off and on for many years, but I've never become truly fluent because of that "off and on" thing. I attended German Summerschool of the Pacific (Deutsche Sommerschule am Pazifik) and Goethe Institutes at various times, but years lapse in between courses, which is the main problem.

I didn't begin studying it until my early 30's, which is also a problem.

I don't find word order a problem, but my vocabulary isn't what I want it to be, and while I can express myself fluently, I know I don't sound like a German.

In some ways I've found German easier than Spanish. Spanish is easier at first, but then you run into those awful verb tenses. The subjunctive---yech! Ditto for the difference between the past and the imperfect.

Shanna's post about telling her landlord that her mother was sick reminded me of the time I asked a Japanese waiter for another cup of coffee in Japanese. "Mo epai, kudasai," if I remember correctly.

He didn't appear to understand me, and I was quite deflated. I asked my companion, who was Nisei and fluent in Japanese, if I'd said it wrong. She told me I'd said it right, but that he didn't expect me to speak Japanese, so he didn't understand.

Daniel, your comment about searching for words in the tongue of Cervantes is so typical. If I can't find the right word easily, my subconscious pulls up a word from another language. Sometimes I'll combine a word from German and a word from Spanish--"dos mal." My Spanish classmates really liked that one.

I think there is some issue with recognition when people don't expect you to be speaking a language, something in the brain changes and needs to be prepared as to what to expect. I've had the same thing happen to me in Egypt when I learned a (very) little Arabic and said something to some vendor in my hotel in Arabic. He didn't react or seem to know what I said. So then I said in English (they speak it a lot there) what I wanted to know and asked if I had pronounced the words wrong or something and he said, no, I had pronounced them just right, in fact, he just wasn't expecting some blonde American tourist to be speaking Arabic, so it didn't register.

Peg,
I did not have much trouble with Latin languages use of subjunctive or different "past"
expressed by past tense versus imperfect.
Once you " get" it in Spanish- Italian and French follow the similar pattern.
What drove me nuts in learning German was the constant guessing
of gender due to the absence of any rules.
I never got that far, but I assumed there had to be subjunctive in German?

I tried learning German last year and gave up, partially because of the need to memorize the form of each and every noun. I studied Russian in college; that was actually easier. Now I'm sticking with French.

<< I worry too about spreading myself too thin>>

I wouldn't. I think for people with a penchant for languages there is no such thing. I've just come back from France after a four-year absence (almost unheard of for me), and was astonished how many new words I learned and how many old ones I'd forgotten came back to me just in everyday dealings with people. I had countless, and I mean countless, moments where "the bell" went off in my head over some word I was pondering...for example, I was going nuts one night trying to remember the word for "poster," which was certainly a word I learned 30+ years ago and used a LOT...and we were sitting at the train station at La Rochelle waiting to go to Paris and wondering which repère we should be at because it was a 20-voiture train and I was on crutches and wanted to make sure I could get to the right car, and kept looking at the plaque where they show the composition des trains, and
some SNCF lady came up and said "Ce n'est pas affiché encore...c'est trop tôt," and the lightbulb went off...affiché means posted...affiche is a poster!

This morning I was reading the Air France magazine on the way home from Paris and though it has everything in both French and English, I was reading the French. There was a headline about some artist who had "dévoilé" some exhibit, and my brain did a stop at that for a moment because I don't think I've ever used, or maybe even seen, that word. But it took only a second to get that it was "unveiled," even though "voile" has many meanings in French.

I've had moments, in particular on one trip where we were at the confluence of Switzerland, Austria, and Italy, and had to change languages it seemed every few hours and I ended up producing sentences with bits and pieces of three different languages, that were taxing, but I wouldn't worry about spreading yourself too thin. Ever. If you're a language nut (and I certainly am), the challenge is what it's all about.

Daniel - just found this thread, after returning from my italian conversation lesson. [lucky me, our teacher is a native italian speaker and we have a nice size group of 8, all of whom know each other now, this being our third year]. I was pleasantly surprised out how much I remembered after a break of about 3 months over the summer.

Like you, [i think] I find languages relatively easy, but I have found learning italian much harder than german, mainly because I started it much later. I think that with your dutch learning experience, your determination, and the fact that you actually studied german for a short while when you were young and your synapses were still forming, you should do pretty well.

I do think that the Michel Thomas tapes are good, as they teach you basic grammar, not just phrases, and that if you really want to make progress, you should go to Germany and do an immersion course.

Good Luck!

I was assigned to Germany in 1974 and took 4 semesters of German on the military base. Conversational German came because I could use it almost daily, even if just for shopping. I returned to Germany in 1985 and renewed my German a bit, again as I lived "on the economy", that is in civilian housing in a village.

My German lay idle from 1988 til 2006 when we started returning to Germany for vacations. Exposure to the language was limited to 10-14 day intervals as a tourist. I decided to charge my use of the language by reading fiction written in or translated into German. I have slowly progressed to the point that I can read popular fiction (Krimi - crime novels) fairly well. I have also found that reading German does little for my verbal skills. I do exchange emails with a friend in München. We will visit her for the second time in December and will, as before, likely find some comfort in the language after 1/2 hour or so, like watching Shakespeare. Still, I will never get to the point that I can follow a newscast. Of course, my native tongue is all that great either.

Regards, Gary

Hi Daniel

I took German in high school, and continued it on to A-Level. I love it and found it much easier to learn than French and Italian. I believe I speak German fluently enough and with enough knowledge to hold a decent conversation with a German citizen, granted it would not be perfect.

I love German, it is my favourite language (and I love learning languages, too!)

I don't think you'll have a problem at all.

Good luck x

Given your experiences with learning Dutch, German would be pretty easy - though writing German might be more difficult.

>> I've wondered if Frisian and Scots retain the Germanic word order too?<<

Can't speak for Frisian, but I don't think Germanic word order applies in Scots: but then, their ruling class was Norman-Frenchified too, albeit by intermarriage rather than outright conquest as in England.

>>What drove me nuts in learning German was the constant guessing of gender due to the absence of any rules.<<

I don't think there's any rule in any language as to the gender of nouns (beyond those relating to people, obviously!), it's just one of those things that native speakers learn from the outset as a package (that thing up in the sky isn't just "Sonne" or "soleil" but "DIE Sonne" or "LE soleil", for example).

And PS, yes, there is a subjunctive in German, but it tends to much simpler to form, and much less to remember, than in French.

There are rules about gender in other languages. I know French and Spanish and there are rules in them. I don't know Italian but suspect there probably is given there are in French and Spanish. Sure, there are some exceptions which you just learn with the word, but the majority of words do follow the rules and if you know the language well, you have a pretty good feel for whether a word is feminine or masculine due to its construction and spelling. It is not totally random, in other words. As for your example, in French words that end in -eil or almost always masculine (if not always, I can't think of any that are not), same as the endings -il or or -eil or usually masculine. That is just one example, there are plenty of other predictive guidelines about the gender of French words. Learning those rules just becomes natural when you see a word, I don't think about those rules, I just know if a word ends in -elle or -ée or -tion or -ure it is likely feminine and if a word ends in -eau or -isme or -ment it is likely masculine, for example (with a few notable exceptions, like the word eau or musée). Spanish has the same kind of "rules" and some exceptions to them.

There most definitely are rules which govern gender in German but there are so many and are so confusing for the beginner (who is already confronted with the fact that they have to learn gender in the first place) that many teachers don't teach them. (Not to mention that in New South Wales, traditional grammar is not taught in public schools unless you are learning a language and so many people I come into contact with do not even know what a noun is.)

Some rules have to do with the morphology of the word (i.e., the morphemes or segments of the word), so, for example, nouns ending with -heit or -keit are feminine, nouns ending with -chen (a diminutive, or an ending that makes the word little and/or cute) are neuter (which is why it's 'das Mädchen'). Sometimes there are certain classes of words that all have the same gender (fish are all masculine, days of the week are masculine, most roles or jobs are by default masculine and you have to add a feminine ending '-in' if you are talking about a woman, and so on). I could expand further but won't at the risk of sending you all to sleep.

About Frisian - I've had some limited exposure to it, and it does preserve the Germanic word order. If you're curious, NDR, a German TV and radio broadcaster, has some pages in Frisian because they cater to that language community in north Germany:

http://www.ndr.de/kultur/norddeutsche_sprache/friesisch/friesisch937.html

If you want to explore further, type 'Friesisch' into the search box and you will get a number of matches.

Lavandula

Lavandula - trust that you and others here are exposing your children to your other languages. Having not had the family background/ immersion opportunities, or the discipline to learn other languages it somewhat irritates me to hear that others better placed have let that magnificent opportunity slip.

christina,
the Italian nouns rules are similar to Spanish ( with the usual exceptions) I find both even easier to follow than French.
As for German, the teacher mentioned that 40 % of some endings indicates that the noun is "most likely" feminine.
When a word for a young girl is neuter (das Madchen) and a skirt masculine (der Rock) one tends get just a bit frustrated.

Pegontheroad-- I only meant that I'm feeling wobblier in Spanish these days given that my focus has been on another language. However, in the vein that you mention, I *have* thrown in Spanish on the odd occasion accidentally for Dutch as you mentioned ("mas" instead of "meer" (Eng. "more"), etc...), which I find quite curious that I would do that as the two languages really seem quite different to me.

GaryMc-- Interesting that reading doesn't seem to impact on your verbal skills in German. I have a similar experience... although I speak French generally well, I stumble in ways speaking that I feel don't reflect that I read in French I'd say at nearly the same level as I read in English. Despite this disconnect, I do think my reading has helped the quality of my speaking but in a more gradual way.

PatrickLondon, Lavandula-- Thanks for the clarification regarding Scots and Frisian. MY theory now is it appears that the Germanic word order got shuffled as it crossed over the rough waters of the North Sea.

danon, christina, PegontheRoad, PatrickLondon-- I'm enjoying the asides regarding gender & subjunctive. Gender I find adds to chore of picking up new words (hard enough to just learn words as it is sometimes!). It took me awhile but I'm learning to just learn the gender with the noun. Maybe because I'm used to it with French, subjunctive doesn't bother me anymore than say learning irregular forms of conjugated verbs... all a part of the game .

underhill-- Interesting that you found Russian easier than German; I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that before.

annhig, KatieLou, Lonelytraveler, StCirq & others-- I appreciate your encouraging words. I'm getting the impression that more or less Italian, Portuguese and German are similar in difficulty or depend upon the person. So "difficulty" seems like it won't be a factor in the decision. I guess at one point I'll just have to decide... tough since all three languages have significant appeal (although in different ways) to me!

Thanks to all!

>When a word for a young girl is neuter (das Madchen) and a skirt masculine (der Rock) one tends get just a bit frustrated.

Only when you're unaware of the fact that "der Rock" (Waffenrock) originates from the kilt worn in battle during the middle ages. Even then, they didn't send young girls to war.

Yes, I am exposing my daughter to foreign languages - I speak Dutch to her although not as much as I would like, our home language is mostly English. She has a small vocabulary in Dutch, including the numbers, and watches Dutch DVDs and hears Dutch songs and stories (I don't have millions of books, but we received a windfall of these through a friend of a friend). We will also send her to one of the Dutch community's classes for immigrant children here in Sydney (they speak of Saturday schools here) when she turns 4, and if she likes it we will keep it up.

I was less keen to start her on a second foreign language, especially one so close to Dutch because I didn't want it to get confusing, but we have been to Germany with her twice now and she seemed to pick up quite a few phrases (hello, goodbye, thank you etc) each time, so as a compromise I show her German children's DVDs (or rather, she picks them herself from the ones we have). It doesn't seem to matter to her that she doesn't understand them, she seems to follow what is going on and I am softening her up for when she does learn German (or should I say if, fewer and fewer schools here are offering it). But I only want her to do this as far as it's fun or interesting for her. She has at least one word that will probably linger, and that is 'Maulwurf', (mole, i.e. the small furry animal). We don't have Maulwürfe here, and Germany seems to have a plethora of cartoons with them, like this charming little guy, who I understand is Czech:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1d2qg_der-kleine-maulwurf-und-das-kaugumm_fun

Lavandula

Good to hear Lavandula - so many don't, even if they get their kids a second passport. Appreciate it might be a challenge keeping them interested as they get older, but what an extra dimension to have later on. [Here in the ACT all the infants/ primary school kids are exposed to a second language/ culture, but it's very basic of course, and a lottery depending on the school (Japanese in my daughter's case - I took the excuse to do an intro course and found it very interesting and not nearly as daunting as imagined). There is an impressive kinder and public school set-up with immersion French, but in those days at least it was pretty much a closed shop to those 'out of area' and without the language at home (perhaps for good reason, but only likely to perpetuate the divide between the 'diplomatic class' and the rest of us).]

Sorry for hijacking the thread Daniel (but recommend der kleine Maulwurf ).

Pegontheroad-- I only meant that I'm feeling wobblier in Spanish these days given that my focus has been on another language. However, in the vein that you mention, I *have* thrown in Spanish on the odd occasion accidentally for Dutch as you mentioned ("mas" instead of "meer" (Eng. "more"), etc...), which I find quite curious that I would do that as the two languages really seem quite different to me. >>

Daniel, i had one of those moments this morning when conversing with our german guests. the italian words that I had been using in class the other night just kept intruding even though they were completely different from the german words I was hunting for. even worse, they seemed to be blocking german words that i know quite well! my excuse is that I was tired, and i know that does make speaking harder, in any language.

<<annhig, KatieLou, Lonelytraveler, StCirq & others-- I appreciate your encouraging words. I'm getting the impression that more or less Italian, Portuguese and German are similar in difficulty or depend upon the person.>>

I can't speak to Portuguese, which I can understand...a bit...but Italian to me is almost ridiculously easy because it's so regular, and pronunciation is pretty much set in stone. But German throws at you the verbs that are composed of the basic infinitive plus myriad prepositions, which when in the past tense scatter all over the place. Somehow, that messes with my brain cells.

I do find it a wondrous thing that a human brain can master more than one way of communicating. I have been dreaming entirely in French since coming home from France this past week, and although in "real life" it seems perfectly normal to me, in the abstract it strikes me as something fairly amazing.

I found German easier to learn than French. French grammar may be more difficult, but has fewer irregularities. Once you've got it, you've got it. On the other hand, pronunciation and inflection are much more difficult for me in French. German just clicked. You could pick a language based on where you most want to travel. I think I'll go for Italian next. Whatever language you choose, I agree with the recommendations for an immersion course.

logos,
thanks for the info,
unfortunately, my teacher did not mentioned Waffenrock.
now I feel much better about learning German

Seriously, the noun gender "guessing game"
was a turn off keeping in mind that, like in Latin and Slavic languages, the gender carries over to
adjectives, pronouns and more.

German just clicked. You could pick a language based on where you most want to travel. I think I'll go for Italian next. Whatever language you choose, I agree with the recommendations for an immersion course.>>

Portia, if you can cope with French and german, you'll certainly like italian. like german the pronunciation and spelling are pretty regular, and ditto the verb-endings though not as easy as german ones, IMO. but the best bit is the vocabulary - loads and loads is the same as english, and what isn't is often like french.

buona fortuna!

Gary,

You said, "I decided to charge my use of the language by reading fiction written in or translated into German." I am now reading the German translation of the French novel, Le Petit Prince, by Antoine de Saint Exupery. Interesting. This book is translated into many languages on the Internet. Sorry I don't have the link.

Tom,

I now pretty much limit my German reading to books available on the Kindle from US-Amazon.com. I got tired of spending a small fortune shipping books from Amazon.de (Germany) or Amazon.uk. Pop fiction mystery books are about what I can handle. I tried T. Fontane, T. Mann and G. Grass but still could not manage the vocabulary. I am slowly working my way through a series by Eva Almstädt set in Lübeck with the heroine being a police investigator, Pia Korittki. The series has gotten better as it progresses.

I found "Der kleine Prinz" offered on Amazon by other sellers. It is expensive and not available on Kindle.

Gary

The subjunctive is easier in German, and there aren't a bizillion times when you use it, as in Spanish.

Memorizing gender is a problem, but there are lots of clues, e.g., when the word ends in "e" or certain other endings. --ik, die Technik, die Klassik, etc..Lots of other examples of gender determined by suffix.

I have useful workbook, "Easy Ways to Enlarge Your German Vocabulary," by Karl A. Schmidt. It has a very useful section on suffixes which determine gender.

I have read a number of books translated into German from other languages, mainly from French (Georges Simenon) and English (Georgette Heyer and Agatha Christie). The correspondence between languages is not always perfect, e.g., "alte Junge" for "old boy" in Christie, but my theory is that it's easier to read a book that has been translated.

I thought I'd read some Karl May books on my next trip to Germany. My reasoning is that since these books were written for young people, they should be easier for me to follow.

peg - you might like to try some Erich Kästner. "Als ich ein kleiner Junge war" about his experiences growing up in pre-war Dresden is a classic as is "Emil und die Detective" which is written for children. I read the former for A level and remember it being quite accessible. it would be relevant for your trip, too.

sorry..
....have not mentioned Wffenrock...

sometimes, even my English seems to be fading...

True, subjunctive in Latin languages has to be used in numerous situations
and in the proper tense. Not easy .
No wonder English has become the language of the "world".

Annhig: Thanks for the suggestions. I will see if I can get them. I especially like the idea of putting them on my Kindle, but if I can't, I'll just tuck the names into my suitcase and buy them when I'm in Deutschland. As you describe them, they sound just like my cup of tea--or more appropriately, my stein of Bier.

Right after I posted yesterday, I got a Karl May for my Kindle.

Since many of you were talking books here, I just want to mention Wladimir Kaminer in case some of you have not discovered his books yet, because you may really enjoy his funny vignettes on life in Berlin that he observed as a foreigner. He was a young Russian Jew immigrant working as a DJ in Berlin but turned into a best seller german author. Check out some of his titles: Russendisko, Mein deutsches Dschungelbuch, Ich bin kein Berliner. Ein Reiseführer für faule Touristen, etc. I normally prefer audio books but his Russian accent is too painful so this is one entertaining author that has to be read.

Daniel: Here's my token of apology for hijacking your thread in my previous post. Below is a link for a free German lesson video series in Dutch starting with the numbers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ1QaWh6TgI
I thought you may enjoy learning basic German while enhancing your Dutch comprehension at the same time.

Can I join in here instead of lurking?
I'd like to say I agree with the comments on the difficulty of learning German and the problems with word order,gender and cases. And of course the subjunctive, especially in Spanish.
My biggest problem with foreign languages is not reading, writing or listening to them, it's speaking. I don't know if it's because I was taught as a child that I always had to be correct and not make mistakes which are hard to hide when speaking! I think it's a fairly common problem.
And that's an interesting point from pegontheroad about your listener not expecting you to speak their language. I think you need to reach a certain level of competence before this happens, which is above the 'functional' or 'tourist' production.
Although I can function perfectly well in several languages, I can't seem to move on to the fluent level and I wonder if this only happens when you live in the target language culture.
Any thoughts?

Speking the language is , no doubt, most challenging ...

I never get a chance to speak Spanish unless I travel
And even in Spain (once a year) my interaction with. native speakers is mainly with
taxi drivers, waiters, merchants and hotel employees
( who often prefer to"practice" their English to letting me" practice" my Spanish.)
On my trip to Berlin, I was able to manage a question in German, but could
not understand a word of the reply.

I often realize that my knowledge of when to use imperfect or past subjunctive goes right
out the window when trying to concentrate on what the native speaker is saying.
Everyone would agree living in the language is the best way to learn it, but sooner or later
we have to come back home.

I second the suggestion to read Wladimir Kaminer. I picked up Russendisko on a trip to Berlin some years ago and really enjoyed it. A recent bestseller that is also worth reading is Ferdinand von Schirach's Schuld - a series of short crime tales based on his experience as a defending lawyer, what you might call whydunnits, but told in a deceptively simple, almost fairy-tale style - and all the more moving for it.

I found it next to impossible to learn. To this day, I know about 3 words in German...ja, nein, bitte, auf wiedesehn or however it is spelled, guten tag, herr, herren wc.

Having said that...I was put in place once on a DB train going from Frankfurt to Paris when a DB official was doing some sort of survey walked up to me and asked me something in German. I politely said to him, I'm sorry I don't understand German. He looked at me like I was crazy and very sternly why not. I said it's too difficult for me. He laughed and said three year old children can speak Germanh. Certainly you can and moved on.

<<I never get a chance to speak Spanish unless I travel. And even in Spain my interaction is mainly with taxi drivers, waiters, merchants and hotel employee>>

I have found that the best way to practice/maintain my speaking ability is to attend those fun "meet up" conversational groups in cafes/bars/restaurants in your area. It doesn't take as much time (about 2hrs)but it's high in content. Keep in mind that we should be considerate to select the appropriate group that matches our speaking skills so we're not dragging down people's flow of conversation. In my area I have met quite a number of working and retired professionals to carry good conversations. Sadly the Dutch group is no longer active, but there are numerous groups for conversing in German, French, Italian, and even Spanish. Typically the more advanced groups attract a lot of native speakers.

xyz: LOL, I typically get that kind of insulting attitude from some French people IN the US. France is for me the most enjoyable european country to visit but yet I just don't have enough motivation to learn it properly beyond getting by.

I think the bit about selecting the right level is crucial. I have joined several of these and found that they frequently lapse into English because the people there are more concerned with putting forward their point of view rather than practicing their Spanish/French/German/Italian etc. They are good in theory but difficult to deal with in practice.
My experience is that the best group for me is one where the other participants don't speak my first language; as this is English, it's quite difficult to find a non-English-speaking group.

thanks for the german book suggestions - we're going to be stuck at LHR for a while tomorrow so I might try to find them in the foreign literature section.

Daniel - please try not to have too many worries about word-order - it should you no difficulties give.

I found the best way to learn was in a semi private class with a good teacher.
unfortunately, it was a rather expensive undertaking.
In my very big city there are not many"meet up" groups . Even if one could join such a group,
what is missing is someone to correct one's grammar and/or pronunciation

Some learners and teachers hold a position that is more productive to just converse
without paying any attention to grammar or correct vocabulary. Does not work from me.

Gertie-- I know what you mean about speaking. It wasn't until I let go of my desire to get the sentence perfect in French (about 15 years ago) that my ability in French-speaking started to improve by leaps & bounds. With time and practice, sentence structure improves, becomes more natural. Being tongue-tied due to perfectionism in my opinion is one of the biggest obstacles to improving one's linguistic skills.

Annhig-- I want with much sincerity to express that I your encouragement very much about word order appreciated.

DAX-- Thanks for the German numbers... Even though I've learned these in German half a lifetime ago, I can already see that even with numbers, I already have a bad tendency of using Dutch or some Dutch-German hybrid for their little "quiz on German numbers". Slecht Daniel. *slaps hand*

Don't you think about using your foreign language in the target country that it's the line of least resistance: after a few words/sentences you settle into the best compromise. For me, in Germany that usually means English because their English is usually better than my German. In Nicaragua it was Spanish because they didn't speak English! Out of the main tourist centres I get my best chances to practise.
LOL Daniel, yes, letting go of perfectionism comes with age!

When I traveled in eastern Germany in 2009, I found that Germans, including hotel receptionists, tended not speak English well. I suspect that they had studied Russian instead of English as their second language.

That area was one of the few places where my German was better than their English. Oh, and at Bodenwerder, along the Fairy Tale Road, where the custodian at the Baron Münchhausen Museum told us the story of the "liar Baron" in German, presumably because his English wasn't good enough. It was a very funny story.

On the Fairy Tale Road trip, I traveled with a woman I had met at German Summer School of the Pacific. Our teacher used to rave about her writing, because she wrote German as well as a native German. BUT she was such a perfectionist that she wouldn't speak to Germans in German. She was afraid she'd make a mistake.

My German certainly wasn't as good as hers, but I don't generally have fear of speaking it.

My favorite German-speaking story: I was in Schwäbisch Hall, where there is a large Goethe Institute. I was at an outdoor cafe, where I ordered "Orangensaft und ein mittel-gekochtes Ei." A German woman at the next table gave me a big smile and said, "Gut gemacht!" (Well done!)

She could tell that I was a foreigner, and was impressed that my grammar (on that particular occasion, anyway) was perfect.

I get a big old grin on my face every time I think of this experience.

It is true that speaking the language is very helpful in small towns or at railway stations..
Even in big city, like Munich, we had to look for a younger person who could explain
a metro transfer in English. A few older people we approached did not speak English at all.
Why would they.
But, as Peg said, it is very satisfying when a native speaker compliments you on the language.
Happened to me in a store in Venice, although , perhaps, the owner just wanted to make a sale!

Actually, I always feel the best about speaking the language if I can help a fellow traveler
who does not.

gertie-- "Line of least resistance". Yes, I find this is how conversations typically evolve. I live in Quebec and I've seen this dynamic played out in my relationships with every individual I know. I don't know why this is but eventually one language wins out over another with every French-speaking friend I have as the "communication language of choice" between me & them... and we never stray from this mode unless a third party comes into the picture (even though I speak French well and they may speak English perfectly adequately). Strange.

Peg, Danon-- I glowed with joy too when the salesperson complimented me on my Dutch "Ik zou nog een keer 'n fiets met handremmen willen verhuren, alsjeblieft" renting a bike with handbrakes. I've wondered too if foreign language compliments are in desire to make a sale, but then again I wonder too if I'm overly cynical in thinking so.

Daniel: as a language teacher myself, I know that what is difficult in a new language is a feature not present in our own language. Thus in German gender, cases and word order. My Spanish-speaking students have a hard time with prepositions in English because there are fewer of them in Spanish and because there are no rules to learn them by.

Peg/Danon,LOL about smiling when complimented on language ability by local people. The only exception I know to this is Japanese where they routinely say 'Ojozu desu ne' as soon as you manage to say anything at all. And don't even mention using chopsticks!!

Daniel: Whether I'm selling or not, I make a point to compliment foreign speakers of their English if I can understand what they are saying. Without fail their faces would light up when complimented. I think in the US we often take it for granted that foreign visitors can speak in English.

The last time I was in East Germany, a lost blond girl asked me if she's on the right train in chopped up German. After she told me that she just arrived from Poland by train, I complimented her German and her face immediately brightened up like I just made her day. It felt good to give someone a free gift.

DAX, what a nice reminder.

Most of us have struggled to learn a new language. It is a great gift when others have told me that my German or Spanish is very good. I suspect that I only end up talking to really gracious people, but that's okay it still gives me a lift.

I wouldn’t say that the German language isn't challenging to learn in the beginning. It is quite difficult when you start and it’s really not such an attractive language. But as you deepen in this language more and more you are getting more interested in it. I guess that’s happening with most foreign languages. But let’s say Spanish is really easy to learn and it sounds more beautiful than German..
I think it is even better if you learn the language in the country where it is spoken. My experience in learning German started at school nearly 12 years ago.. I never got fascinated then with this language and never took it seriously. But recently I moved to Berlin and started some intensive classes in a German language school (Deutschakademie- http://www.deutschakademie.de/berlin/) Learning a language in a place where you can directly practice it is really challenging.. The first month of course was really difficult and not so interesting as you still cannot make sentences, but my teachers were so motivated to teach me German and made it so fun that I wanted to go on and be able to speak. In the middle of the second month I was able to make real sentences and could have conversation with people..
That was so nice. I couldn’t believe it. Then I started liking the language and didn’t find it so difficult or ugly sounding language. If it wasn’t for my teachers I don’t know if I would like to learn it so quickly.
Recently I got a job opportunity in Manchester and I had to leave Germany. I can’t believe that I miss the language so much. I have communication with the school and send e-mails with my teachers so I don’t forget the language...
I just want to say that a language becomes challenging for different reasons. Sometimes it needs more time to learn a language and there should be always a good motive for that.

mm - a funny first post, karina, especially as the page you link to comes up with an error message.

actually i disagree with you about the first steps of learning german, particularly for a native english speaker- the early stages are pretty easy as the vocabulary is pretty familiar. it's as you progress that it get's harder because of the grammar - but even that can be conquered with a good teacher.

<<The first month of course was really difficult and not so interesting as you still cannot make sentences>>

yes, of course you can. they may not be very complicated, but you can certainly create sentences in german from the start. eg Ich habe ein Buch.

i bet you can even translate that without a dictionary even if you've never heard or seen a word of german before.

which makes me wonder if you have ever tried to learn german and if this is just an advert.

I am sorry, perhaps I haven’t made myself clear.. When I say that you cannot make sentences, I am referring to compound-complex sentences.
Because most of the sentences we use in continuous speech are complex, and you can’t only use a simple sentence to communicate with other people. You need a main clause and a subordinate clause to make a complex sentence.
You may say: Ich bin müde. But in real life you have to make your sentence more clear like:
[hauptsatz] [nebensatz]
Ich bin müde, weil ich nicht geschlafen habe. or
Ich möchte keine Buch kaufen, weil ich nicht lesen mag.
I don’t know what you mean when you say that my post is funny. I have just shared my experience. It doesn't mean that it is the same for everyone. This is my point of view. It might not be the same for everyone here.
You are right about the error on the link, here is the right one: http://www.deutschakademie.de/berlin/
I just like recommending anything I feel that may help other people in their attempt of learning a new language.

You have to understand there are a couple of posters here who have decided that all first posts are automatically suspect no matter what is said in them.

We have seen too many first-time posters who registered only to advertise their own company's services, often by pretending to be their own clients. That's why we are always suspicious about this kind of contribution, please understand.

And, by the way, it's "kein Buch" not "keine". Das Buch, Neutrum. This error makes me believe that you are indeed a language student and your review is genuine.

And, by the way, it's "kein Buch" not "keine". Das Buch, Neutrum. This error makes me believe that you are indeed a language student and your review is genuine.

quokka - having read Karina's 2nd post, i am inclined to agree.

<<You have to understand there are a couple of posters here who have decided that all first posts are automatically suspect no matter what is said in them.>>

Dukey - do you mean me? surely not!

<<I don’t know what you mean when you say that my post is funny. I have just shared my experience. It doesn't mean that it is the same for everyone. This is my point of view. It might not be the same for everyone here>>

Karina - there are two meanings in english of the word "funny" as I'm sure you know. your posting of a false link plus its being your first post made me somewhat suspicious, for which i apologise. you obviously love speaking german, as i do, so i hope that you have some more chances to practice it soon.

I trust that by this time, Daniel Williams, who posted the original inquiry on September 17, 2012, speaks fluent German. Ich gratuliere.

Haha. Nein. I actually haven't even started yet; German is a summer project for when I'll have more time. In the little free time I've had lately, I've been focusing on my Dutch skills instead, further building up my vocabulary in that language by taking 10-20 minutes each day listening to newcasts and songs.

oh wow! I wish there was a similar post on simple books, newscasts and songs to listen to for French!

In so far as German is concerned, I found it rather easy in the beginning but harder as I express complex ideas. I too trip over the Dutch I know (from a year in NL) whilst speaking German, as Dutch was my 2nd language and has "held" better than my other languages. However, I will add that I am not truly *fluent* in anything other than English.

You could do as I did and really branch out, with Japanese. German seems quite tame after that.

In so far as German is concerned, I found it rather easy in the beginning but harder as I express complex ideas.>>

my experience too, HunyBadger.

but like every other language, practice makes if not perfect, certainly more fluent.

good luck with the japanese.

HunyBadger, what materials are you using for the Japanese?

My German teacher in high school (too many years ago to write down!) did a wonderful job teaching grammar and I was able to understand English grammar so much better in the process. Two years of high school Spanish were made easier too. French, on the other hand, is a big enigma for me! Maybe one of the others was right when they said some people's brains might be geared more to the germanic languages than the romantic ones.

hunybadger, there have been numerous posts on here about such things for French, also, you could find them if you did a good search. I know some people aren't used to searching very well, it is a skill.

My father taught both German and Spanish and also said French was his first love (he just had to change due to the job market, but I think French was his main major). So that is interesting as they are different types of languages, but he just loved languages.

It doesn't make sense to me that German would make Spanish easier somehow, but not French. I have studied French a lot and Spanish second most, and they are similar languages in many ways (some of the verbs are even identical), so I don't understand that. I never studied German much at all, I think I did a bit when I was very little but that all disappeared by high school, and then I've brushed up for short vacations with phrases, that's all. But I think understanding grammar just helps you learn languages in general, and I always knew grammar very well in English just from school, so of course that helped me learn French and then Spanish. I went to Catholic school many years ago, we learned grammar, you don't need German to learn English grammar. But I did find it odd that so many people in my language classes when older had no idea what a relative pronoun was, for example, or a conjunction for that matter, or the difference in an adverb and adjective.

HUnnyBadger, do a google search for News in Slow French. It's free and it's great, assuming you already have some command of the language. It's available in myriad other languages as well. There are plenty of other resources as well, but since you mentioned newscasts....

I went to Catholic school many years ago, we learned grammar, you don't need German to learn English grammar.>>

i went to a girl's grammar school in the english midlands and we learnt english grammar too, but I can confirm that learning German certainly helps in that regard because it is impossible to learn it without having a VERY good grasp of grammar, whereas IME of learning french, [in the same school] it was possible to do quite well with far more hazy grammatical knowledge.

now i am learning Italian, knowing grammar quite well is definitely paying dividends.

St Cirq - thanks for that idea about the News for slow ..... website. I've found the italian one and will give it a go soon.

annhig: The biggest boost for me is recording TV talk shows from RAI onto CD's and playing them during my daily commute. If you could do the same, you'd be amazed how fast you would learn to comprehend Italian at full speed and at the same time improve your ability to speak more naturally using proper idioms and expressions. It just helps me speak a lot more fluently without constantly searching for the correct words & tenses. I did the same with German a long time ago and it worked very well in increasing fluency and natural flow in talking.

Dax - that's a great tip, thanks.

only problem is, not sure how I can get RAI in the UK.

I'll have to get my tekkie DD onto it.

I think German is easier than French. For some reason, I remember German words more easily and the grammar seems more instinctive to me.

Ich auch.

Daniel: "... focusing on my Dutch skills instead, further building up my vocabulary in that language by taking 10-20 minutes each day listening to newcasts and songs"

Hier kan je een beetje Duits van Hitler hijzelf leeren:
http://anonghena.wordpress.com/2012/11/11/hitler-in-de-laatste-show/

En ik heb deze link voor en leuke versie van het welbekende Italiaanse lied van mijn nichtje gekregen 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBDl9NJapz8

Dank je wel DAX

Monique Smit is jouw nichtje?

Ik heb deze clip met een andere wereldleider, Moammar Khaddafi hijzelf, gevonden.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plDovd-Khw4

"We beginnen met een paar dilemma's" "Ik ben niet zo'n lezer" Grappig!

En Jean Marie Pfaff liet mij zien dat ik duits al kan spreken!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDf0p4MgFmw

Daniel

Nee mijn nichtje is alleen maar 11.
Bringing it back to English since this is an english board. I'm quite impressed by your Dutch. I don't understand why would you be interested in learning Dutch when it has very limited use, is it because of the nice people