You might ant to by-pass Lyon, and see some of the area between Lyon and Geneva

The pcitures are geo-tagged so that they can be located on a map.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mksfca/sets/72157624529919999/show/with/4861339700/

Hi sq,

Driving into the city wasn't at all bad. We did it without a GPS.

Here's what I wrote about our visit to Lyon.

We stayed at the *Axotel Perache*
(http://www.hotel-lyon.fr/axotel/axotel_perrache_acc.htm ) - less than a 10-min walk from the Train/Metro/Tram station.

Using a conveniently located open space on the street, we checked in, unloaded the car, and took our things up to our Prestige room. This turned out to be a very nice place to stay. Our room was large, with a living room section with a coach easy chair, desk and chair. Beds were comfy. Facilities were new. The hotel has "parking available", but not its own garage.

Using directions from one of the very helpful ladies at the reception desk, I drove SB through the truck depot area to a gas station (very reasonable rates) and back up to the Eurocar office at Gare Perache. The depot area is a sort of dreary place, but is populated by a fairly large number of very friendly presentable young women (some of them very young). All of them took time from their busy schedules to smile and wave at me. Who says that the French are standoffish and formal?

Having unloaded the car, my Lady Wife and I wandered the immediate neighborhood until it was time to get ready for dinner.

*George's* (http://www.brasseriegeorges.com/ ) is several minutes walk from the hotel. It is a very large room, dating from far back enough to have been renovated in Empire, Art Nouveau and Art Deco styles. The staff is very well trained. Watching them navigate among the tables is like being at a stage show. Not one dropped dish all night.

Roberta had the "The Traditional" seafood plateau - 25E - 2 ea of 3 kinds of oysters, 3 mussels, 4 snails, 3 red shrimp, 3 grey shrimp, a bowl of periwinkles, a bowl of teeny, weeny shrimpies (sort of like popcorn), lots of bread, butter and the usual condiments. The oysters were particularly good.

I had the "Menu Lyonnais" - 25E - A salad with herring, lentils, greens, beans and calf's foot (XLNT), Choucroute of smoked fish (Yes, you can mix fish with sauerkraut), cheese, Rhum Baba for dessert. With aperitifs and a bottle of dry Muscadet fuisse -100E.

The hotel's buffet breakfast was quite pleasant. We then visited the outdoor market on rue Charlemagne and then on to the metro.

At the Perache Metro, we bought day passes - 4.5 pp - and headed up to the Old Town. We arrived at the Cathedral St. Jean le Baptiste in time to watch the clock strike 12:00. Very interesting. After that, we had a snack in the square and went on to Le Fourviere. Very impressive. We had a very nice walk down from the hilltop.

Dinner was at the hotel. At the time, the kitchen was still a work in progress. If it gets itself squared away, it will be a very nice, reasonably priced resto.

>this is our first time in Europe.<

What's the rest of your itinerary?

Michael - thanks for your reply - your photos are amazing - and I would love to see some of those sights. ( I am not sure what geo tagging is so am not sure where the photos were taken).

Ira - thanks also for your reply, and that is a great trip report.
Our itenary is the following - fly into Charles De Gaulle, pick up car, drive to Rouen - 1 night. Drive on to Honfleur for 1 night. Bayeaux for 1 night. Dinan for 1 night. Vannes for 2 nights. Loire Valley 2 nights. Beaune for 2 nights. Then the plan was Lyon for 1 night, onto Annecy for 2 nights.
Then onto Clermont Ferrand 1 night, Sarlat for 2 nights.
We then have 1 week with friends in Minerve, during which time we will be based in 1 place and explore the South of France. From there we drive to Avignon, leave the car, next morning AVG train to Arras for 5 day tour of the Somme. Last 4 nights will be in Paris.
I know we will be on the road a lot and pushing it, but we will adjust if necessary, only the first 3 nights accomodation is booked as we are arriving over the Easter weekend. The week at Minerve, the tour and Paris also booked.

I think it's up to you as to whether anything in Lyon is a "must see", that's just subjective. It's a large enough city that a decent guidebook to France will list the main tourist sites of interest. I like it, it's a very nice city and has an interesting old town plus cathedral on a hill, and several good museums and a river. There is one must see in the city, actually, but if you have to ask, it won't be a must-see to you or you'd know about it. That is their textile museum (Musee des Tissues), which is one of the best in the world IMO. They actually have one of Charles de Blois' pourpoints in there!!! And the city has a strong history in the textile trade and silk industry, there is also a silk museum. As I said, if you don't know about these, I'm sure they aren't a particular interest of yours (they are mine so I had to go).

And the Lyon Opera is very well-known, of course, and they have a fountain with a sculpture by Bartholdi in the main square outside City Hall, which is quite impressive (all of that, the square and city hall). Of course they are known for their cuisine, but I'll admit, it's not my favorite type.

it is a large city, but is easy to get in and out of by public transportation, of course.

Thanks for that information Christina, I had read of the textile museum, but I doubt that we would be interested in that.
I had read that Lyon was the gastronomic capital of France, but coming from Australia, I think that any of the French cuisine, in any of the regions, is going to be different for us and be enough to enjoy.
We will have a car, so that is our concern about driving into a large city, that we may not be able to find our way around so easily.

Well, you're all over the map already, so why not stop in Lyon, too? It's a major destination in the area, with hundreds of attractions. Not any harder to get into and out of than Rouen or Clermont-Ferrand.

Do you think our itenary is too packed and too unrealistic? It is hard to know when sitting down looking at a map, a book and the internet only, not having any experience of travelling in Europe before.

Yes, I do think it's packed and unrealistic. You're going to be stuck in a car watching all of France out the window for most of each day, then checking into hotels, unpacking, and trying to get your bearings, and then it will be time to move on...over and over and over again. Certainly not my idea of a fun time in France.

What would you take out of it?

Lyon is to me one of the most underrated large cities in Europe - a spectacular setting where two large rivers gush together - a stellar old town known for its maze of intimate alleys - just a very pleasant city - the best to me outside of Paris for a large city.

There are few must sees at least in terms of blockbuster sights but the Old Town itself IMO is a must see - also nice parks and a very famous pilgrimage church you can take a funicular up to from the Old Town.

I stayed in Lyon for a few weeks once and never got bored.

Yes, I think you are moving around way too much and trying to pack too much into the beginning of your trip. For starters you fly into CDG and pick up a car and drive to Rouen. Will this have been an overnight flight where you may arrive at CDG not very rested? It's certainly doable, but then you do a series of one or two night stands which will not allow you to really see or enjoy any of the cities you rush thru. Plus how to adjust to the time change moving that quickly? I don't know the area you are traveling in during the beginning of your trip so I will leave to others to guide you on specific changes to make, but I would definitely change the first 10-12 days of your trip. Pick a couple places and stay put - perhaps do day trips, but don't move around every day.

The way I read your itinerary, you are heading to 11 places in 16 days (before you head to Minerve). Even if that is physically possible, it's going to be totally unpleasant.

Personally, I'd completely revise the entire plan, but if I had to stick with your general outline, I'd drop Brittany, stay in Bayeux for 3 nights instead of roaming all over Normandy for one-night stands, drop Clermont-Ferrand and Sarlat, spend at least two nights each in Lyon and Beaune...and just generally speaking, plan to spend at least three nights in one place.

Yes our flight into CDG is an overnight, and we figured that if we do the drive to Rouen this would not be too far to go when we are tired, hence our choice here.
Is Brittany not worth the drive? We could adjust this part of the trip, and not go to Vannes.
We do have 2 nights in Beaune already.
Sarlat was on my list of places I really wanted to see, or is that over-rated?

Brittany is worth the drive if you plan to stay a week or more.

No, Sarlat isn't over-rated (ha!)...it's just that you're trying to cram all of France into one trip, and the Dordogne deserves at least a week. You're not going to have a minute to actually experience anything other than scenery flying by a car window. Instead of hopping from one place to the next, take a few long drives, settle in somewhere, get to know it a bit, and branch out from there for day trips if inclined.

Do you think there is any other way of including both the Dordogne and Annecy in our plans, to then get to Minerve. Unfortunately, that week is set and cannot be changed. Our must see is also the Loire Valley.

I am not sure what geo tagging is so am not sure where the photos were taken).

When you look at an individual photo, but not full-screen, you can see on the right side information on where the photo was taken. Click on the pink dot and you'll get a map that can be enlarged or reduced as necessary.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mksfca/4860706725/in/set-72157624529919999

Hi
I am planning to take my family (including two teenagers) to Europe this summer. We'll need to go to Barcelona for an event. After that, we want to visit France. We are thinking about flying to Nice then make our way toward Paris via TGV. We are thinking about visiting Lyon or Avignon, but are flexible. Any recommendation for places to visit would be greatly appreciated. Would it be better to rent a car and drive from Nice to Avignon/Lyon or take the train.

Thanks in advance.

Hey P,

You will do better if you start your own thread.

Hi SQ,

I suggest that you take StC's advice and rethink your itinerary.

What you have now is a trek, not a visit.

I have taken on board all that has been said, thanks so much for your assistance.
I want to get the most out of the holiday, as it is probably the only time we will ever go to France.
I have done a revised plan, but this could probably also do with some tweeking.

Rouen 1 night, Honfleur 1 night, Bayeaux 2 nights, Dinan 2 nights, Loire Valley 2 nights, Sarlat 3 nights, Beaune 2 nights, Annecy 3 nights, then to Minerve.
What do you think, is this more realistic and achievable? The drive between Sarlat and Beaune is probably going to be the longest.

Ira,
Thanks for the advice (I am a first time user).

<<Yes our flight into CDG is an overnight, and we figured that if we do the drive to Rouen this would not be too far to go when we are tired, hence our choice here. >>

Very risky. Also unsafe and inconsiderate to other drivers on the roads.

Even if you've managed some sleep on the overnight flight, you just never know when jet lag may kick in suddenly, very unsafe with unfamiliar roads and signs and two hour drive.

It will take an hour or so after landing to get through passport control and pick up any checked bags, then another hour or so to collect the car, adding to "tired".

Know also that the better idea is to take it easy day of arrival, but keep up somewhat of a pace until your usual bed time, local time. Then, you should be fine, after a good night's sleep, for the rest of your trip. If you take a nap, or go to bed too early, you risk having jet lag for many days to come.

The revised itinerary is still far too rushed. You'll spend more time packing/unpacking, checking into/out of hotels, and in the car, than enjoying the sights.

You really cannot enjoy the Loire Valley, for example, with only two nights, which leaves you with only one full day to explore a considerable area - which goes for all of your two-night stays. A one night stay will simply be an overnight break between one destination and the next.

Lyon, for example, is unique for its traboules, murals (amazing), and bouchons. No way you can enjoy all that "on the way" to somewhere else.

Of course, it's your trip, and up to you. But, please do not get behind the wheel of a car after an overnight flight.

What would be the best thing to do then following the flight? We do not want to go into Paris straight away, and we need to pick up a car.

You could head from CDG to Gare St. Lazare and take the train to Rouen and pick up your rental car there.

Or, take the Air France coach to Porte Maillot. This is not Paris tourist central, but from Place de Porte Maillot, you can see the Grand Arch in one direction and Arc de Triomphe in the other, and it's a lovely neighborhood for strolling, perhaps picking up a few essentials.

Have a nice dinner (highly recommend Le Ballon des Ternes, especially if you like seafood and/or authentic Art Nouveau interior, but there are plenty of appealing places within steps), spend the night, pick up your rental car at Porte Maillot, and hop on the "freeway" nearby.

Le Meridien Etoile and Concorde Lafayette are right there (very nice). If you prefer something more "charming", have a look at

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g187147-d229622-Reviews-Hotel_La_Villa_des_Ternes-Paris_Ile_de_France.html

Hi sq,

>Rouen 1 night, Honfleur 1 night, Bayeaux 2 nights, Dinan 2 nights, Loire Valley 2 nights, Sarlat 3 nights, Beaune 2 nights, Annecy 3 nights, then to Minerve.<

I'm less concerned about driving to Rouen than djk. On the back roads, it is under 2 hr, which is my limit for a drive after arrival. YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.

Of more concern is when you are going to get some sleep.

Starting off jet-lagged, you then plan on two one-nighters. Other than sleeping, what will you do in Bayeux?

Since Bayeux is only 2 hr from Rouen, why are you changing hotels twice?

Bayeux --> Nantes is two hr. Do you need 2 nights in Dinan?

You are shorting the Dordogne with only 3 nights in Sarlat.

Do you need 3 nights in Annecy?

Hope this helps.

I topped a trip report on Lyon by Jay_G. Great resource.

I would dump Dinan, add a day in the Loire valley, add 2 days in Sarlat, and cut Annecy back to one night.

I think you need to stop thinking so linearly - we'll drive from here to here to here to here - and start concentrating on what you want to do and see and experience. That is, of course, unless you truly enjoy road rallies, which is fine if you do.

Ok, I have reconsidered my itinerary again. However, I cannot make an absolute decision on it until I have spoken to my travel agent.

A few questions.

Are Beaune and Dijon really worth the visit? - neither of us are so into wine that we have to stop there, especially if we can visit wineries in the Loire Valley.
If we travel across from Sarlat to Annecy, a stop would be a good idea, so would Vienne be a better stop than Beaune?
In the Loire Valley, how many castles can you really look at before you have had enough, I was thinking of choosing 3.
Is Sarlat the best option to stay in the Dordogne, or would you choose a differnt place?
Why only have 1 night in Annecy? I wanted to take the cable car up to the alps, so that will be a day in itself, let alone looking at Annecy.
Is Dinan not worth the stop and why?

I don't think we will have a problem with the drive after arrival, as mentioned the north road is less than 2 hours, and we have both worked night shift previously, so are very familiar with lack of sleep, but running on adrenalin will help I am sure.

Oh...you have a travel agent. Now I understand the problem. Exactly how much time has he/she ever spent in all these places and traveling to them?

Dijon was the seat of the Dukes of Burgundy when the dukedom rivaled the kingdom of France. It has important historical sites, and worth seeing is the tomb of one of the dukes of Burgundy, if it's back after the renovation of the museum.

3 chateaux are enough.

You can do Sarlat to Annecy in one day if you take the autoroute.

www.viamichelin.com will give time and cost of the itinerary you choose.

Sarlat is the biggest town in the Périgord noir and the logical place to use as a base.

That you cannot make absolute decisions without checking with your travel agent explains a lot.

You can run on adrenalin for only so long. Experiences travelers will tell you that it catches up with you after a while and your energy and enthusiasm may diminish every day.

If your travel agent is booking accommodations, be SURE they can be cancelled without penalty and find out the policy for each one.

Once there, you may decide to scrap most of your plan.

Everyone has to figure out for themselves whether they want to breeze through as many places as possible or slow down and actually enjoy it all.

Lyons is well worth a day visit. I went there last year from my home in southern France to see James Blunt in concert and was totally blown away with how interesting the city is. It's always fairly simple to go into the center of towns & cities in France - just follow the Centre Ville signs. Course with GPS you can just put your hotel's address in and away you go. I stayed in the heart of the historic region and walked everywhere. Don't miss the Basilica Notre Dame de Fourviere which has an amazing view of the city. Also, the Cathedral Saint Jean Baptiste is lovely. The main street down the old part of town which runs in front of the Cathedral is full of shops, restaurants, and wonderful old buildings. Fun at night when it's all lit up. On Sat. there's a great outdoor market along the water.

if you have a home in France, why aren't you spelling the name of the city correctly? It is Lyon, there is no s at the end of it.

Hoping you will rethink your trip itinerary...you are doing a "baggage drill" with the 1-2 night
stays.....a travel agent should realize that.....take the suggestions from the "pros" here on the forum. You do not want to look out your car window as France passes by....stop & stay a few days in some wonderful places !

It's not whether Dinan or any other place is worth a visit. The problem is that they are all worth a visit. For people who have never been to France it's hard to imagine how much there is to do and see in any part of France. For any of the cities/towns you've picked it would be easy to use them as a base to explore the area and still not run out of places to visit after four or five days.

I agree with the others that the best way to enjoy your visit to France is to see fewer places. Pick two or at the most three regions to visit outside of your Paris and Minerve time. So something like Normandy, Brittany and the Loire would be more relaxing. Or Dordogne, Annecy, Burgundy. Pick whatever regions you want but just cut down on the moving around.

I have resisted replying until now. However French Mystique has expressed just what I was feeling. Everywhere you have mentioned is worth visiting. We have had four trips to France and have yet to visit Honfleur, Annecy or Lyon. You are moving around too much. The way I see it, you have sixteen nights before you get to Minerve. Pick four places and spend four nights in each place. This way you will get a taste of what France is about. Time to see what that area offers and time to enjoy being there. Normandy, Brittany, Loire and Dordogne for example.

We are Australian and would not be happy to get off a flight from Australia and drive for any length of time. We always feel a bit ragged, so I would look at alternatives. The whole unfamiliar car, driving on the other side of the road when tired is a recipe for disaster. We stay a week at a time in a rental and have limited experience with hotels but have used Logis de France [ cannot get the link to work ]. These are small hotels in smaller towns and may be easier to stay at than driving into larger cities

Hope you have a great trip. France is a wonderful place.

Here is the link for logis de france.

http://www.logishotels.com/

Good luck

Hey sq,

> I cannot make an absolute decision on it until I have spoken to my travel agent.<

Your TA, like your lawyer, is there to arrange for you what you want done, not what he/she thinks you ought to do.

The only technician I let tell me what I should do is my physician, and only after we fight about it.

You are getting some very good advice here. Consider it carefully.

Has your TRAVEL AGENT taken this trip...?? First hand experience..?? I agree with ira.. and others....good advice is right here on Fodor's.