Probably worth ignoring Britrail and check prices on say http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ if it were me I'd rent the car from Edinburgh but you may be right. Premier is a good mid price range, if you cannot sleep you don't have to pay and there is normally a Restaurant (from the same plc) attached.

May should be ok for rooms unless there is a festival. Local region websites should be able to advise

Prices aside, I also think it might be a better plan to take the train on the way north and pick up the car when you leave Edinburgh. It's a lot of road time driving both ways and the second half seems to be the one where a car will be more useful. My general rule is to always go by train unless there are places in the countryside too awkward or impossible to visit by public transport. Then I get a car and do the country places, try not to have the car in a city of any size which is just a liability. See cities by train, countryside by car.

If your dipping into Wales, Roman history is abundant in Caerleon and Caldicot to name just 2. Both very close to the M4 which gives direct access to Oxford and Londinium.

Thanks. My original idea was to take the Caledonian Sleeper so we could skip a room in London and Edinburgh and wouldn't have to worry about parking. I just checked the nationalrail website and it shows fares around what I got on Britrail.

So, as we wanted to see Durham anyway, driving probably works out better for us, even though we have to stay an extra nite and pay for the car plus parking for more days.

Thanks for hotel feedback.

BTW--any tips on where to pick up auto in London? We're staying in The City, and would like to have a half-day more in London before getting auto, but we will have luggage to carry to wherever.

Are you aware that train tickets are only available up to 3 May at the moment. If you're looking at dates after that you'll only see full prices. The cheaper fares will be released in the coming days/week. Then you can get a single fare London to Durham £15 or London to Edinburgh £17.

I'd seriously consider taking the train because driving out of London and then 4 to 5 hours to Durham is not fun.

Best place in Durham to eat is www.bistrotwentyone.co.uk/

Nearby, consider visiting Washington Old Hall the ancestral home of George

www.nationaltrust.org.uk/washington-old-hall/

Why can't you get the train from London to Durham and then next day Durham to Edinburgh?

Whilst the drive from Durham northwards is quite enjoyable, scenic and full of interest (though I'd still punt for a train for ease and relaxation), a charge up the A1(M) from London to Durham is not under any circumstances.

It is meant to be a holiday you're taking, not a British Motorway Ordeal.

Whatever you decide I hope you enjoy your trip.

Dr D.

Hi dwd,

i agree wholeheartedly about not trying to drive both way, especially aiming to do London to Durham in a day - phew. that would be likely to wipe you out for quite a lot of the trip.

but can i ask why you aren't flying to Edinburgh? there are easyjet flights for about £35pp all through May from London Gatwick to Edinburgh. you could then spend your 3 days/nights there without the worry of parking, pick up your car, and start your tour.

I'm just waiting for Janis to launch in....think she might have something to say about day 7....at least.

Thanks folks. I hadn't thought of flying, but I'll check it out, and check out the lower fares.

Thanks for the restaurant recommendation.

Here I am

I have something to say about several days (day 7 is insane but more on that later )

However my main question is . . . is the London hotel pre-paid/set in stone? If not, upon arrival at LHR I'd fly up to Inverness, spend your first night in the city. Use the time mainly walking along the river and recovering from jetlag. Then collect a car and start a semi-linear journey down through Scotland and England --finishing up w/ a stay in London.

Or a variation - fly to EDI, stay a couple of days car-less then collect a car and do a Scotland loop, south through England and again finish up in London.

Third variation -only IF the London hotel can't be changed: Visit London first, collect car drive north, finish at Inverness, fly to LHR, fly home.

You really don't have time to reasonably drive the fulllength of the UK twice . . .

Thanks Janis--no,nothing is set in stone except the flights to and from London. I'll speak with my better half and see what she thinks. The original plan was to stay in London, train to Edinburgh, get car. . .that way we avoid having the car in Edinburgh. The consensus is that that or some variation on it are better than driving all the way so. . .

Instead of flying to Inverness, we might train there if we can get a good fare, as I have heard that that's a pretty neat thing to do. Also won't have to worry about the weight overage--we do NOT travel light!


Thanks for the help.

There's an awful lot of driving in your itinerary and I think it's going to take longer than you think. I assume you're coming from North America. If so, driving in the UK takes more effort than at home. Not only are you driving on the other side, but the roads are narrower and small roads lack shoulders/verges. Right at the lane's edge, there's a curb/kerb or a hedge or a stone wall. So you need to concentrate more, which is tiring. And in northern Scotland, there are single lane roads, one lane for BOTH directions. If you get behind something slow-moving, it could really delay you.

It's days 15 - 17 that get me. Each of those destinations -- Chester, Wales, Liverpool, Oxford, Blenheim -- deserve more time, much more time. If you're not going to visit Oxford, maybe stay in Woodstock or somewhere between Woodstock and the airport.

We've made looking up Roman ruins one of the subthemes of our trips to the UK. We went to Housesteads and Vindolanda along Hadrian's wall and found the combination visit great. There's another wall, the Antonine Wall, north of Glasgow, but it's very hard to detect, not much to see. York has Roman stuff. And there's some more around Woodstock, the nearest being North Leigh Roman villa.

Not to pile on, I agree with the others about only driving one way. And you might consider going directly to Scotland and ending up with your time in London.

Mimar---thanks. We know about the slow going as this will be our second trip. I did check driving times on the internet before making the itinerary, however. I'm trying for no more than about 4 hours total drive time a day.

Also, thanks for the input on the end of the trip. Unless you think we should cut it short in Scotland, what would you prune?

We stayed in York for a few days last time and it was great, and we spent a day in Oxford. I'd love to go back to both, but. . .

just a quick comment - gotta run . . .

" I did check driving times on the internet before making the itinerary,"

Whichever online mileage calculator you use (I prefer AA, but there are other good ones too) you need to add from 25% to over 75% to the drive times.

The on-line journey planners return a 'perfect world' time/distance and don't account for traffic, sheep in the road, caravans (travel trailers), weather, road construction, anything.

Mimar--if we take the train to Edinburgh, we can squeeze in another day at the end of the trip. What do you think then? Suggestions?

We would probably have to give up on Durham as I do not see a good way logistically to get to it without spending hours driving.

janisj--

Does the time thing hold for the motorways as well? Last time, we crawled around the Cotswolds, Bath, etc., (all that you said, plus tractors and Army tanks) but then almost flew from York to London. So, for example, if we take the M6 from Glasgow to Penrith, does the travel time shown hold or should I add more?

Thanks for all of your help with this.

<<Does the [added] time thing hold for the motorways as well?>>

It does in Scotland. Never know when Hamish will pull the tractor into the road and mosy along at 20 clicks on a 100 kph motorway whilst pulling a few hay bales on a trailer. We had more than a few pop out into the "dual carriageway" portions of the A9 and for Scotland that's a main thoroughfare.

In Scotland, motorways are only in the most populated areas (Glasgow-Edinburgh, Glasgow suburbs, Edinburgh to Firth of Forth bridge and slightly beyond, etc) so they get more cars to begin with. That means more pokey oldies or daft idiots who crash or slowdowns due to volume of cars, etc.

Never know when Hamish will pull the tractor into the road and mosy along at 20 clicks on a 100 kph motorway whilst pulling a few hay bales on a trailer>>

hamish and his tractor had better stay off the motorways lest his modern day name-sake come along and nick him. he is though entitled to drive at a maddeningly slow speed on A roads, getting in everyone's way, but not on motorways.

Durham.

Seventh Day: see Cathedral, etc., then drive to Stirling Castle>

Chedck a map as it may not be much out of the way to motor thru the fabled Borders Abbeys regional of Scotland - dropping by such famous ruined abbeys as Jedburgh or Melrose and head to Stirling that way, skikrting the greater Edinburgh area.

The M74/ M6 south from Glasgow is fast, especially as you get closer to Cumbria - expect to be overtaken by cars doing 90mph. No tractors whatsoever.

Getting to Durham depends on your route, but its easy to get to as its on the main east coast line between London and Edinburgh.

Jury's In at LHR airport is great-reasonable if you book online,has 3 beds in the room,breakfast/restaurant/coffee shop onside along with newsstand and good proximity to all the terminals and rental car returns.It. Is right next to theHatting cross tube station.

"Unless you think we should cut it short in Scotland, what would you prune?"

Inverness, no question.

You could fly or take the Sleeper train from London to Inverness then hire a car and make your way south

If you haven't booked your air tickets yet (or can get them altered) you could also consider a multi-city ticket and fly into Inverness (probably via a European airport) and out of London

I would definitely fly on to Edinburgh upon arrival. Then stay in Edinburgh a day or two to get over jetlag. If you leave London til the end, that means you don't have to spend a night at an airport hotel, giving you some more productive touristing time.

And I'd definitely cut Liverpool. Any time you have to drive into a city, find parking, find your way around, then drive back out of the city, you're using up a lot of precious time. And, I agree, don't spend any time in Inverness itself.

While I loved Durham, yes, it probably doesn't fit in this itinerary.

What do you want to see in Wales?

Thanks for all the responses.

PalenQ--Thanks. I've started to look at the Borders area as a substitute for the Highlands. I'm now thinking of leaving out Perth.

Fra Diavolo and Mimar, I'd already decided to prune Inverness after seeing your responses from yesterday and, after looking on a map, Blenheim. Presuming that we can get a good train fares if we book early or that we can get flights, my thinking right now is to overnight train to Edinburgh as originally planned, then train back to London from Liverpool or thereabouts. That makes the trip much more compact.

Mimar--my thoughts about Liverpool were perhaps along your lines: if we do go there (and see below) drop the car on arrival and take the train back to London. I've also decided that the best way to see Glasgow would be to take a day trip from Edinburgh via train.

Re Wales--What should I want to see in Wales? Harlech Castle is the only thing I know anything about. Maybe you have some suggestions. Although I'm ashamed to say so, to some extent, it's to say we've been there.

I now think we can fit Durham in if we stay around Hexham or some small town near Hadrian's Wall--looks to be not that far a day trip. We'd be looking for some charming place in or near a village where we could spend a few days. Last time, we stayed at the Old Bell in Malmesbury for several and that is one of the highlights of all our travels. Then drive through the Lake Country on the way South.

After reading about Liverpool, I think I want to see it. The Maritime Museum there looks interesting, and we have gotten to like seeing "industrial museums." We're really city people, although we can tolerate a few days in the country.

dutyfree: we have a hotel at the airport now. I'll check out the one you mention, but the attraction of the one we booked is that we can walk to Terminal 4 and our flight from it. I presume there are places in the Terminal to get breakfast, as the price of breakfast at the hotel was prohibitive.

I'm going to start a new thread on this as soon as the rail fares go down. My current plan is to have three fairly long stays outside of London, with the goal being to not have to spend only one nite in a place: Edinburgh for one, then Hadrian's wall area for another, then Liverpool/Chester/Wales. But I'm not as wedded to this last part of the trip, and if you all tell me there is more to see on the east side of the Country, then. . .

BTW--our interests are historical, archaeological (particularly Roman, and industrial archaeology like Ironbridge Gorge) architectural, and art-related rather than scenery and outdoor sports. I love to hike, but my spouse can't and doesn't like to-hope to be able to hike a bit around Hadrian's Wall.

So any help you can give me is appreciated and I thank you all for your help so far. Ciao.

These might be of interest (we get around a bit):

North Wales
http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/a-quick-weekend-trip-to-conwy-north-wales.cfm

http://ukfrey.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/north-wales.html

Liverpool
http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/a-daytrip-to-liverpool.cfm

Chester
http://ukfrey.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/chester.html

London
http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/londongreenwichoxford-with-kids-and-grandparents.cfm

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/3-days-in-london-with-kids.cfm

Edinburgh
http://ukfrey.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/edinburgh.html

Alnwick
http://ukfrey.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/alnwick-york-easter-weekend.html

Scotland (though I think you've dropped this bit)
http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/scotland-trossachs-skye-and-loch-ness-an-indydad-trip-report.cfm

indy_dad--Caernarfon looks like the perfect spot in Wales for our interests and will fit perfectly. Thanks.

hi dwdvagamundo

This is the Network Rail page that has saved me a fortune in London to Edinburgh (or Glasgow fares) for a good few years. It gives you the dates when Advance fares become available for each train company (scroll down and you'll find all of them listed). Monitor it daily because it updates daily. As soon as you see the date appear that you intend travelling check the prices out on either the railway company's site or perhaps Trainline. You should see a very big discount applied.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/booking_horizons.html

Jon