atravelynn

My thoughts on Noflyzone's questions about warnings to areas of the US where killings have occurred are this: Those tragic events did not target tourists.

travelwmn

farflung- I would have done the same thing. My son is dying to go to Egypt (and so are his parents), but we've put off a trip until it feels a little safer. It's just not worth the risk (or the money) if we're not going to be totally relaxed and comfortable. Until then, there are many other beautiful and exotic place to explore. I may not be traveling to Egypt, but I'm not going to stop traveling.

JamesA

The bottom line is that is doesn't in the end make the slightest difference if you are injured or 'worse' by someone breaking in to your house in California, being caught at the wrong place at the wrong time in Kansas or being mugged in Detroit ( or you can call those Paris, Caracas or anywhere ), the fact is that when it comes to overall 'personal safety' many countries are overall 'safer' than others. Your chances of getting robbed or mugged in a place like Cairo are actually very very low. There are many places in the world where whichever part of a town or city you are in, whether living or as a tourist, you could quite happily go out at 2 a.m walk along darkened streets to s store and return without the slightest thought or concern that anything might happen.
I am not saying that people should disregard safety or act in a less than sensible manner, however, the bottom line is many of these places warnings are given for or 'advice to avoid' you are actually safer than in many others that have no warnings, whether that is your hometown or elsewhere.

Janitor

Well, Ive signed on to help clean up all this Egypt trash talk. Get it? The Janitor (witty huh?) Anyway, Im actually appalled at all these so called travelers who are so naive about these "so called attacks". The first attack was by a man who threw a homemade nail bomb from a motorcycle at the Khan, hardly a diabolical plot. Granted, four people were killed but the bomb was filled with nails! The next attack was from a guy on the run from the police who jumped off a bridge before being captured and the bomb he was carrying went off when he landed. Two women related to him then took guns and attempted to open fire at a bus station in retaliation. Are we really going to call off all tourism to Egypt over this? I understand all of this worry, but please remember that anything that resembles Middle Eastern terrorism or Al Qaida will get overplayed by our friends at CNN who are secretly waiting and praying for more. I lived in Cairo for 5 years and there were occasional car bombings, attacks (Luxor) etc, but it didnt make us change our lives. Please remember that there is a large US population working in Cairo and the Embassy has a responsibility to inform them and keep them safe. As far as demonstrations go, I wouldnt worry about them at all. Now I wouldnt go looking to watch or take part in one but please dont call off a vacation over it. The Middle East is a volatile area and there will always be an element of risk when traveling. Just go to Cairo and enjoy yourself! (Just make sure that when you return, you write to this fear spreading website and tell us all how you managed to avoid being killed in such a barbaric, dangerous city!) Janitor...Out!!

Casual_Cairo

Just one quick question more.... Spygirl, you clearly don't live in Egypt, but it seems you work for some Government agency. Want to tell us what your credentials are that give you your anti-tourism attitude?

Clearly I live here and work in tourism which gives me knowledge and experience with what is going on and my perception of the reality of the situation, and of course you and others will probably say I'm only positive on the subject because of my work, which isn't true, but nevermind.. I'm just curious what you do for a living and where you do it, that gives you your attitude. Thanks in advance for sharing.

sunshine007

It seems to me that the people who are afraid to go to Egypt have children under 18, whereas the childless do not seem to have this fear. Of course, the fear of leaving your children alone in the world is a basic and understandable position.

Those of us without children have a different set of priorities (and fears!) which allow us to take more risks. I'm planning on moving to Cairo next January. The bombings gave me momentary pause but are not keeping me from doing this. If I had children then maybe I wouldn't feel this way.

Does anyone agree/disagree with my theory?

farflung

Sunshine007, I agree with you. We were to go to Egpt the first week of June with my two school age children, but we cancelled the trip. Egypt appears to be moving into a period of volitility again and we didn't want to be a part of that. Some people are v. angry right now (Cairo a Breeding Ground for Militants: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050507/...truggling_town) We aren't going to stay home, instead we are going somewhere else. There are so many places in the world we haven't explored. If we didn't have kids, we probably wouldn't have jumped ship.

rfb

Casual Cairo,

Thanks for your posting. It is always good to hear from somebody who is actually there and able to observe what is really going on.

Since I started visiting Egypt in 1995 there have always been periods when people have said don’t go, the sky is falling when actually it’s only been a little rain. Cairo has a long history of being a breeding ground for militants but so does London and Paris, not to mention Boston, New York and Philadelphia a few years back.

Bulletin boards such as this can provide valuable help and information when people are planning trips and trying to decide what to do. They can also unfortunately stir up unfounded fears when people get on them and start making unsubstantiated claims of impending disaster based on their alleged expertise.

We all know that the Egyptian government has taken great steps to control terrorism which have been, for the most part, highly successful; while I don’t endorse the type of methods that they use, I can certainly applaud the results. I don’t know whether or not their methods will endure over the long term, but in the short term I believe Egypt is one of the most stable middle eastern countries and it certainly offers more to tourists than any other country in the world and I don’t make this statement lightly.

Rather than discouraging people from visiting, I think this is the perfect time to encourage an increase in tourism. I stand by my previous statement that each person needs to make a decision that they are comfortable with, but they shouldn’t allow hysteria on the part of a few to unduly influence them. If I had done this in 1995 right after the Egyptian museum bombing incident, I would have certainly been the loser. If, in the future, it were to become the Islamic Republic of Egypt, the opportunity to visit may well vanish; hopefully, this will never come about but it is a thought that should certainly be in the back of everybody’s mind who wants to visit particularly in light of some recent happenings in the Delta.

Meanwhile, the voice of reason is always welcome and I thank you again for posting. And, lest anybody think otherwise, I am not the person who requested your message.

Casual_Cairo

Yes, Thanks rfb for your post and support. Everything you said was very true.

I also agree probably with the person that separated the parents from those of us without children. We are probably more willing to take risks that the parents won't take, and that is ok.

If anyone has any questions about the reality of what is going on, feel free to write to me. Again, I'm happy to give you my perception of what I see and know from being around here.

Happy journeys to all.

hamitzer

Janitor-
I'm no expert in bombs, but visiting Israel during major attacks I know that nails inside a bomb meant to ensure more casualties. When nails got into your internal parts it's not funny, and will increase the no of victims, and wounds are more sirious..So I guess your laughs about 'home made' bombs are not very clever, especially when you mentioned that 4 people were killed.
There is a difference between being in the wrong place in the wrong time, or being the target!

Janitor

Hamitzer,

Please dont misunderstand me. You are right about bombs being bombs - nails, no nails etc. I was trying to make a point that the attacks dont seem to be a very organized attempt and seem to be carried out by a few rather than many attackers. In no way am I trying to make light of any attacks on anyone. I just think we should look at all the facts before we start putting Egypt on the Fodors Travel Talk banned countries list! No need to escalate this. Im not trying to get into a confrontation here, just trying to add my vote to traveling to Cairo.

Thyra

I certainly do think that children' are a deal breaker.. to your point. We live in the heart of Los Angeles, honestly if we had children' we would feel better living in the suburbs! Dear Casual Cairo.. your post was terrific.. I always prefer to hear from someone actually "on the ground" so to speak.. It's always so much less alarming when you live in a place. So far, we are continuing on with our plans to visit Egypt in the HEAT of September!

Mimi

Dear Thyra: At present, we are also still planning to go in September. What tour company are you using? Mimi

Thyra

We are going September 14-27, though I would have liked to nudge that into October.. October is Ramadan and we have booked with Egypt Highlights.. after checking about 200 references. I also got trip insurance which covers terrorism within 30 days but must be purchased right when you make your first deposit.

rfb

Author: spygirl1
Date: 05/10/2005, 01:44 am

"However, if you want to ignore what the State Dept. is saying, in favor of an Egyptian guide, well, there's just nothing more to say to that. Not one thing. "


Promise?

hamitzer

rfb-
While YOU don't want to hear spygirl1
any more , I think she has made her point. No need to argue anymore- just decide whom you beleive- anunknown so called 'egyptian tour guide' or officials from State dep.?
Off course, you can do what my British friend did going to Taba last September ignoring all the official warnings, and ending with beautiful photographs from the first 2 days and ugly wounds from the third one (remember? car bombs?)

Scout52

First, who is spygirl1? Is this the evil alterego of our beloved spygirl?

Second, note that although the Embassy is warning against travel, there are a lot of us who are experienced in the area, are US citizens and in some case like mine are also USG employees that have posted about how we feel the warnings are overblown and overly cautious.

There are obviously two widely differing opinions about the relative validity of state department terror warnings, so I would urge that forum participants check the question from all angles before making a decision. What are the British/Canadian/Australian/German/French/ . . . governments putting out to their citizens?

I also noticed that Casual Cairo was very upfront about what he does for a living and openly shared his advice to a potential customer that they should decide for themselves. Why is Spygirl1 getting so excited??

sunshine007

I think the US Government issued a warning to stay away from tourist areas in Cairo & to be vigilant rather than warn that we should not go to Cairo.

But mostly I would like to say that I appreciate calm, reasoned discussion without capital letters and name calling. I stop reading a post once I see those things. For that matter, I avoid reading any posts by those people.

I argue for a living


I argue for a living (I'm a lawyer)

sunshine007

whoops! sent the post too soon. Sorry!

Scout52

Spygirl, your assertion that threats to Americans and other westerners are not parallel really isn't valid. Do you really think that your average terror bomber is going to check your passport before he blows himself up? Arabs can't tell different western nationalities apart any better than most of us can tell an Egyptian from an Iraqi. Even if they could tell us apart, the terror trend in the region has been to kill any non-Arab without worrying about where they are from. There have ben Philipinos, Germans, Brits, French, Indians, . . . all killed by terrorist attacks in the region. So, to return to my original argument, if citizens of other western countries are being killed in the region, and their people are warned about travel to other countries in the region, but they aren't warned about Egypt, doesn't it logically follow that our State Department may have overreacted??

I'm not speaking without experience in the area. I've spent many years in the region, had friends shot at, blown up and beheaded, we travel with bulletproof vests, pistols, and armored cars when possible, and every move we make is coordinated in advance. There are countries in the region that are extremely dangerous, but I don't think Egypt is one of them.