TC

<i>And the sole purpose here is to set out the various options, and the realities of China travel so that people can make informed decisions,</i>

Peter, I believe this is the problem many of us have with your postings -- you do <u>not</u> set out various options -- you sing a one note song about the hazards of interacting with any member of the Chinese tour community. For a self described expert in the field, you offer very little usable information with which to make these informed decisions. You do not present options, just opinions.

Statements like the following in your post contain no usable information. Without first hand experiences to back them up and specific outlines for avoidance, these are simply your opinions.

<i>"those who prefer tours should understand the very problematic nature of organised tourism in China,....just how much they will be taken for a ride....if they should still want to choose a tour it should be with eyes wide open... (to)being profoundly misled, paying more than you need to, and having your pocket thoroughly picked"</i>

I am still trying to sort out your latest posting. You appear to suggest that we do our bargaining at the counter of hotels that are impossible to find by doing research because they <i>"have effectively no Internet presence"</i> or the research won't turn up the <i>"hundreds that have opened but have received no publicity"</i>. What is it we should tell a taxi driver at the airport? You have never offered names or addresses. If there are so many wonderful Chinese owned hotels known to you, but impossible for others to find doing advance research, why don't you list a few here? That could be seen as real assistance.

thursdaysd

"What is it we should tell a taxi driver at the airport?" - where do you want to be? Hotels are remarkably gregarious. Given that we're not talking about the Marriotts or the Hyatts (for which Peter recommends booking through the websites), you'll find the more budget outfits where budget travelers want to be - near the main sights, or public transport options to get to the main sights, plus cafes and restaurants. (And maybe Internet cafes, except these days most budget hotels - as opposed to high end ones - have free wifi.)

Pick a hotel from your guidebook that's in the area you want and give that address to the driver. If there are two of you, park one with the luggage in a cafe and send the other off to look at hotels. If there's only one, pack light. If it's China, and the area has succumbed to the wrecking ball since the book was published, you could just say "hotel" to the driver (or show him the word in your guidebook) - you don't have to stay in the place he takes you to.

If you don't like the first hotel, you can say you want somewhere cheaper/more expensive/with a restaurant etc and you'll likely get a recommendation. When I decided I absolutely couldn't stay in my Aleppo hotel last year (booked based on guidebook, tripadvisor and website) and my taxi driver was lost I decided to throw money at the problem and tried the Sheraton. When I said $700/night was out of my price range I was sent to a very nice and very new place two streets away. The next morning I found a dozen hotels in a two block area.

I wouldn't visit Beijing or Shanghai or Hong Kong without a reservation, but I've done fine in other places in China - and I'm a solo female traveler, over 60, of sedentary habits.

Marija

Thursdaysd, how many times, in a city of any reasonable size where you cannot communicate with the driver in a common language, have you actually instructed a cab driver to just take you to a "hotel?" I can see that it might work in a small city that sports a handful of hotels clustered together but, other than that, it's like telling a cab driver to take you to a "restaurant." A very strange piece of advice coming from a very experienced traveler.

NeoPatrick

Glad you enjoyed shopping for a hotel that way, and changing the next day, thursdaysd. Vacation is all about what one enjoys. And it's great that you travel the way you enjoy.

But thank you for reminding me that by the second day I'd have felt I had "lost an entire day" of my trip and would be very frustrated going shopping for a new hotel the second day after just "making do" the first night after a couple of unsuccessful attempts and running from one hotel to another before settling on one.

We all have ways we love to travel. Glad you enjoy yours. To me that would be a NIGHTMARE! Taking a taxi to a pre-arranged hotel in one quick trip and unpacking completely and settling in would be worth triple the price of a bargain place found after two days of hotel "shopping", or changing after a single night. Especially after arriving on an international flight! But again, to each his own, and I'm glad people are posting how it can work for those who like to travel the way you do. There is indeed something for everyone. I know some people who literally like to stay in a different hotel every night -- that's fine for them.

thursdaysd

Marija - I didn't say to STAY at the hotel he took you to, although that's not necessarily a bad idea - I found an excellent, cheap hotel in Saigon that way (alas, now defunct). I don't generally do it because there's usually a commission involved, and I only suggested it as a possibility for China because I know that in many towns areas that look good in the guidebooks turn out to have been demolished by the time you get there.

Language is hardly an issue - I found that pointing to the characters (NOT pinyin) always worked, and where else are you likely to be going from an airport/train station with luggage other than a hotel? BTW, another good option is asking your hotel in Town A for a recommendation (and even a booking) for Town B.

It's not only small towns that have hotels in clusters - look in any Lonely Planet. I'm currently in Canada - in Quebec City every building on the street I stayed was a B&B, here in Montreal every building on this stretch of St. Denis is either a hotel, a restaurant or a shop. In London you can stay in not-so-good budget B&Bs clustered round Victoria station, or rather better ones all in a row on Gower St in Bloomsbury....

thursdaysd

Well, NeoPatrick, the situation in Aleppo wasn't actually my choice - I had every intention of staying at my carefully chosen pre-booked hotel! But the room I was given was a disaster - the guy on the front desk claimed he'd move me the next day, but I decided it was too hot (no promised AC) and too dirty for even one night. I used it as an example of what can be done. If you're on a very tight itinerary, clearly you're better off booking, but now I'm retired I have more time than money, and stay longer in the same place, so a little time spent checking hotels isn't a big deal. It took longer than usual in Aleppo because the town was packed, generally you don't need to look far.

Marija

Yes, thursdaysd, cities and towns everywhere have clusters of hotels and often the clusters are quite different from one another. I'm just not adventurous enough to have a random cab driver at the airport decide the area I'm going to stay in, even if I carry a Chinese dictionary that we can use to pictorially discuss the pros and cons of the different locations. In travel, as in all else, De gustibus non est disputandum.

TC

I really can't understand why so many agree that every single member of the Chinese tour community is a criminal ready to fleece each and every tourist who steps foot in the country, but that a random taxi driver is the salt of the earth and would take them to the most reputable of locations to shop for a hotel? The logic escapes me.

Marija

TC--<i>so many</i> is almost always one.

NeoPatrick

TC, exactly. Or why the Chinese people are generally friendly and honest, but if one goes into the tourism business he immediately becomes a total crook, liar, and robber. It's apparently some sort of secret Chinese law. That logic escapes me too. Maybe the ones who fail to agree to fleecing all tourists and lying to them are appointed to being taxi drivers?

And Marija, your point is well taken!

And thursdaysd, thanks for clarifying. Sometimes we must all do what we have to do. But that doesn't necessarily mean it was our first choice. I get that.

thursdaysd

Marija - I thought I had pointed out that relying on a taxi driver is not usually my first choice, (or probably second, or...) but is a backup in case of need. Nor have I ever said that one should never take a tour, in China or elsewhere - my first two trips to China were on tours (Smithsonian and Intrepid). My third was seven weeks solo, and a lot more fun. I just think that people should be aware that there are options, and that traveling solo in China is really not that hard.

NeoPatrick

"I just think that people should be aware that there are options, and that traveling solo in China is really not that hard."

That may be so, and I'm sure to find out as I arrive next week going solo for my first trip to China, but you have to admit, it can't be as hard after having already been there twice before (even with a tour group) as it is your first time there.

TC

Bon Voyage, Patrick. I know you'll be back to give us a blow by blow of your encounters. Can't wait to read your recommendations. Safe travels.

thursdaysd

NeoP - the first time I went to China - with the Smithsonian - was back in '97 and it didn't occur to me then to go solo. Even so, at the end of the three weeks I told my assigned roommate that I thought I could handle China on my own. Admittedly, even though she'd been off on some independent excursions with me, she didn't think she could. The second time was Beijing to Islamabad, and there was a stretch of the Karakorum Highway in Pakistan I wouldn't have wanted to do as a solo female.

I'm sure you'll do fine - have fun!

Nutella

I was initially inclined to respond to the dissection and dismissal of my innocuously stated personal opinions and experiences.

But instead I went for what turned out to be an amazing seven mile run along the beach

Clifton

Nutella, I wouldn't want you to respond either...

but, as an onlooker to this thread who seems to share some similar tastes in accommodation, I'd very interested in a small list for "someday".

More so, how you found them to start with? I personally have no idea how many stars anyplace we've stayed in the past had. We enjoy those sort of small, charm-filled inns and guesthouses ourselves at times. Unique, non-box like places, usually somewhere a few blocks away from a main square, maybe a converted historic building or house. But the above thread makes it seem rather daunting to find by the seat of ones pants. And I for one can't mime "small and charming mid-price range" as easily as I could "less expensive".

Nutella

Hi Clifton, not sure I have any special method for finding these places, I just do a ton of searching and reading.

Aside from advice from Fodorites of course... I like travel blogs the best, either stand-alone ones that you just find by searching google, or blogs on dedicated sites such as travelpod. I find that people are often writing for their family and friends and are very honest about their experiences, and often include photos. And from blogs, you tend to get a good sense if the writer shares your travel style.

As indicated in my earlier post, I look for places where the traveler was treated like family, where the proprietor was warm and welcoming and went out of his way, where pleasant evenings were spent with other guests on the rooftop terrace, etc.

When I hear of someplace that sounds good, I search more to see if other reports confirm these positive reviews.

I also feel that photos are really important. Just like house hunting, but on a miniature scale as you're only staying a few days, I like to feel a "connection," a sense that I can visualize myself enjoying my time there.

And if you hadn't made reservations in advance, of course an excellent method is asking fellow travelers along the way. If you're in Dali and heading to Lijiang next, good chance that you'll run into someone who's just been to Lijiang and can offer you up to date advice.

I also watch a lot of travel videos and read books about my destination - just finished a book about Varanasi India where the author stayed in a hotel that really exists. I had already been interested in this hotel based on good online reviews, but the book sealed the deal for me. The rates are more expensive than other hotels around it, but it's someplace I am looking forward to staying and I believe it will enhance my trip. Same with a place in Pushkar, I'm almost as happy about securing a reservation at a highly regarded guesthouse as I am excited about witnessing the Camel Festival!

Clifton

Thanks for the ideas Nutella. When I first posted, I thought you might have liked some specific places in China, but thinking about it now, by the time we go, those places could be very different or not around. Better to know the process.

Lots of interesting ideas I hadn't thought of and a few we've done too. Came across a great old kasbah we stayed at outside Skoura, Morocco from a blog, now that you mention it.

Varanasi ought to be very interesting. A place that's been on my wish list for quite a while.