mavoelke

Hello everyone!

My sister is about to begin building her family, and we've never been able to go on a big trip together due to her career. So we want to plan a big European adventure while our schedules permit it. We are going to be there for 3 weeks beginning Labor Day weekend of 2016. I studied abroad in London, but she has never been to Europe. I would love help planning the perfect itinerary that allows us to see as much of Europe as possible. We are both in our early 20's so we'd like an economical, fast-paced trip. We don't mind overnighting it on the Eurorail or anything like that. Here are the countries we'd really like to see (in no particular order)... I know it's ambitious:

London
France
Italy
Spain
Netherlands
Greece
Czech Republic
Switzerland
Denmark
Scotland
Iceland
Ireland
Croatia
Portugal
Germany

I would love suggestions on the best place to fly into and the most efficient route to experience the most countries. Thank you, thank you for your help in advance!

janisj

>> I know it's ambitious:<<

You have listed FIFTEEN countries! After subtracting travel days you will have less than .5 day per country. That is <u>half</u> a day. Not even close to possible.

BigRuss

Prioritize and come back. As stated, your ambition is impossible (and completely daft). How are you going to "experience" a country in 36 hours? Last check, even countries don't have a single culture (France, Spain, Italy, UK, Germany, etc.).

And stating your actual interests would help - it's not like these countries (plus London, which is still just a city despite having a larger population than a few countries on the list) are all the same. If you're just looking to check off names of countries on a list, then go get a map and look at where there are concentrations of borders.

janisj

>>How are you going to "experience" a country in 36 hours?<<

If only.

w/ 15 countries (I counted London as 'England') in 21 days there can't be many 36 hour stops. Some will involve arriving in the AM on the night train and leave that evening on the next night train - but only for the few routes w/ practical night routes.

Otherwise it will be - spend several hours getting to the next city, and leaving the next morning.

tonfromleiden

The classic mistake: "as much as possible". Is having seen London, Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Berlin and so on "having seen as much as possible", if it means you haven't seen other parts of these countries, and even only having seen a few so-called "must-sees" in those cities?
I totally agree with the above. This is a plan for a train trip with stops in a list of countries. You'll see a lot of stations and hotels, but not much else.
You'll have to narrow it down to a part of the Old Continent which interests you most. And don't think in countries. As has been noted, large countries fall apart in regions which are totally different in life style, culture and sometimes even language.
Tough decisions are to be made. But you'll be rewarded.

PalenQ

We don't mind overnighting it on the Eurorail or anything like that.>

Night trains are great for saving daytime travel time and the cost of a hostel or hotel but very few overnight trains these days have reulgar cars you can sleep in for free - most require sat least a couchette for about $25 p.p. - which is OK because sleeping in regular cars is a bit risky for theft but couchettes have doors that lock from the inside - anyway for loads of great stuff to plan a European trail trip check out www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com. And yes the Eurail Youthpasses for those under 26 can be great bargains if taking several longer trains in multiple countries.

nytraveler

In 3 weeks seeing 7 or 8 CITIES, not countries, is a lot, and will result in your spending a very large percentage of our time just getting from one place to another. (I would do 6 cities max but am trying to respond to your desire for a fast-moving trip.)

As for night trains - there are relatively few and you must check for each one. Naturally you can leave one city at night and arrive at another in the am - but usually it involves multiple changes of train and your sitting up in a seat the whole night. Real night trains with sleepers and no changes are quite scarce.

And keep in mind that you will be constantly moving from one country to another every day - with a different language, transit system, way of doing things and geographical layout - ensuring that the trip will be a blur if you even attempt the places you have listed.

This is just not at all possible.

If you really want to hit as many countries as possible - and not have any contact with the local culture, spend long days sitting on a bus and spend a lot of money and eat amercianized version of local foods, go for one of the multi-country bus tours. At least that was you will be able to sleep on the bus to make up for having to rise at 6:30 am every morning to grab breakfast before heading out by 8 am.

ElendilPickle

I sympathize with your desire to see as much as possible, but I agree with everyone else that you're trying to cram too many places into too little time.

What are your interests? What are your must-sees and what are "this would be great if we had time" locations?

If you can narrow this down, it will help all of us help you plan a great trip.

Lee Ann

Aramis

Let's break this down, janisj, since it seems to BOTHER YOU SO MUCH!

3 weeks = 21 days
15 countries = 14 changes of location
1/2 day per change (14) = 7 days (more on this later)
21 - 7 = 14

So....... that would be 14 days to "see" 15 countries

What you really did was upgrade your standard, and stated; "you lose 1/2 a day every time you move" mantra into a "you lose a whole day" day one to turn this into the egregious analysis;

21 - 14 = 7 days to see 15 countries


In your rush to, once again, ring the hyperbole bell and chastise yet another poster into travelling at a pace that resembles what you would be comfortable with, you failed to notice that the OP said the countries were the ones they would "like to see" and that she asked for advice on the most efficient route to "experience the most countries" on the list on a fast-paced trip.

Clearly, the OP is looking for some advice on how to see as many of the countries listed in 21 days. I will assume reasonability in her approach to that exercise, where you choose to assume lunacy.

And even if the OP wants to spend one day in a representative location in each country, they are entitled to do that irrespective of your belief as to the legitimacy of such a plan. I wouldn't do it, I wouldn't tackle this broad an attempt, and I think that something obviously has to "give" on both scope and probably cost, but I am not going to reply with exaggeration and with a tone bordering on outrage.

Seriously, it's not your life. If this kind of approach to travel offends you, back away from the keyboard.


mavoelke;

A first look at your wish list suggests that the following routing order might be somewhere to start further analysis. It depends on many factors (like Iceland Air flights, for example)and was put together by leaving out some of the outliers, geographically speaking. Some of these transfers involved would have to be flights as overnight trains/ferries are not an option (Barcelona-Rome, Rome Greece)

London (2)
France - Paris (2)
Spain - Barcelona (2)
Italy - Rome (2)
Greece - ????? (2)
Croatia - Dubrovnik (2)
Czech Republic - Prague (2)
Germany - Options (2)
Switzerland - ????? (2)
Netherlands - Amsterdam (2)
Iceland (1)- Iceland Air offers free stopovers in Reykjavik

The outliers I left off of this first cut are;

Denmark
Scotland
Ireland
Portugal

Some of these could be included if you dropped Greece and Croatia, which are outliers in their own right. For example Iceland Air flies back to N America through Copenhagen, Amsterdam, and London permitting the stopover at the front or back end of your trip and putting Denmark in the mix.

Clearly, unless you want to do a number of one night stops, something probably has to give. There are, of course, many possibilities dictated by the pace at which you want to move and how much you want to spend doing the moving.

Maybe a session with your friend deciding what could be dropped based on desire, distance, or cost, would narrow down the list to something on which we could give more specific help.

Many seasoned posters here will not recommend anything less than 3 "full" days in any one place and you already see that a 4 hour train ride can be categorized as an entirely lost, or wasted day, rather than part of the experience. It is what they are comfortable with and they frequently can't see past a desire to correct anyone with less than their abundant wisdom and knowledge.

It doesn't have to be what you do.

hetismij2

Three weeks is 21 days yes, but are at least two of those taken up with getting to and from Europe? No allowance for jetlag? Nor for the possibility of poor weather or delays or just plain serendipity?
There are very few direct night trains in Europe any more. Travelling long distances at night can involve several changes. Travelling short distances at night doesn't solve the where to sleep problem.

janisj

Aramis: Always in attack mode. I guess you are simply driven to discount things I post. Silly really. Don't know why since your post also implies the OP's plan/hope is impossible.

The rest of us are actually trying to help her so they don't spend 1/3 their time and half their ££/€€ in transit.

Kathie

I agree with others, this list is not possible in your three weeks, whether or not your three weeks includes or excludes travel time.

So start by figuring out how many nights on the ground in Europe you will have (allowing for flights over and back).

Now, take a good look at your list and choose the places that call to you most. I'd recommend that you choose cities rather than whole countries, as it will help make your planning clearer.

Be aware that 2 nights in a place is only one full day to see/do/experience. Yes, you'll get a little bit of two other days - sometimes as much as half a day, but you have to consider the whole of your transit time - from checking out of lodgings in one place until you check in at the next.

Now, you are ready to look at what it is you want to do and see in each place. So make a list for each city of the things that draw you there the most. As you do that, it will become clearer how much time you need in each city.

Look at a map, and try to choose places that are relatively close to each other to minimize transit time. Also, consider costs. The more places you go, the more you spend on transport - changing locations is expensive in terms of both time and money. Note that the most expensive place on your list is Switzerland.

This will get you started on your planning. You have a whole year to refine this.

Edward2005

Tips for building your itinerary:

1. shoot for at least 2-3 nights per stop
2. add in a few smaller towns as big cities will grind you down, even great ones
3. add in a 2-3 day break in the middle of the trip just to relax, no museums, no sights, no obligations
4. check for festivals, concerts, etc. you might want to catch
5. in big cities there is usually one day a week when all the museums are closed.
6. you can't see it all. don't try.

Aramis

That is your perception janis. I think I made my points reasonably and clearly. If you think you made yours the same, I can see why we are frequently on opposing sides of the discourse. For example, you again missed the observation that the OP wasn't posting a proposed plan - it was a wishlist and a request for information on how to see as many of those locations as possible.

I'm not interested in ridiculing earnest people asking for real information and guidance, especially when it is predominantly centred around the belief that no one understands time and space and what constitutes the valuable use of it like you do. You consider that helpful because of your steadfast belief that you know more than the OP about what she would find rewarding. Let's ask the OP whose response she deems more helpful

I think it is most useful to give the OP's information that will allow them to decide if they really want to follow a certain course, according to their personal preferences.

janisj

You called me out by name -- make your suggestions and quit getting off on attacking others. Totally unnecessary.

pariswat

I'm disappointed Belgium is not on the list.

PalenQ

Belgium is about the only country not on the list - oversight? But if they take teh train Paris-Amsterdam they will have to pass thru Belgium - if on a Tuesday then "if it's Tuesday it must be Belgium!'

ESW

What are you expectations of this holiday? Are you planning on spending most of your time travelling (presumably by train) and enjoying the scenery through the window or are you wanting to spend some time in each country? If the former, it is possible to see a lot more, as long as you understand your days will be spent seeing a country through a window. If the later, then you will need to prune back on the number of countries.

Where are you travelling from? It may be possible to arrange a flight via Iceland. With a reasonable layover between flights you should have time to visit the Blue Lagoon if nothing else. (Note flights land at Keflavik International Airport which is 50km west of Reyjavik).

Something else you may need to factor into your budget is that some countries in Europe are a lot more expensive to visit than others. Iceland and Switzerland spring to mind here.

Decide how you are wanting to travel - flying or train - and then look at a map of Europe and begin to work out a logical sequence of countries and begin to see how many you can fit into the three weeks allowing for travel times between them.

PalenQ

Overnight trains are an alternative to flying on far-removed places - save daytime travel hours and the cost of an accommodation to boot - trains in general are the best way to get between cities no more than 4-5 hours apart and you get to see the Europe in between tourist meccas and not just a handful of big cities and tarmacs and airports.

mavoelke

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies. Like I said, I am very aware that it is ambitious, I was mostly looking for a route that would allow us to to see even a third of the countries listed. I know hitting every one and fully experiencing it is impossible. I will take all of your recommendations with me back to the drawing board. Thank you again!