Are Europeans 'inflexible'?
Jul 18th, 2006, 04:41 PM
#101
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Some people, when traveling abroad, seems to forget the universal but yet very wise and famous slogan: When in Rome...
I feel that when you travel to a different country it is to your advantage to understand that you are dealing with a different culture, and accept the fact that you are Not back Home, but a guest of that country.
If you feel uncomfortable and unhappy , you can always leave and go back home..where everything is always so smooth and dandy..
I feel that when you travel to a different country it is to your advantage to understand that you are dealing with a different culture, and accept the fact that you are Not back Home, but a guest of that country.
If you feel uncomfortable and unhappy , you can always leave and go back home..where everything is always so smooth and dandy..
Jul 18th, 2006, 05:25 PM
#102
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To answer the question---are Europeans "inflexible"? The answer is NO. And I fail to see any connection whatsoever between the business decision to adhere to their opening and closing hours by a small taverna in Spain, and anything to do with "tradition" or "inflexibility". It happens in the U.S. too. Just try lining up some people, with money in hand, to pound on the door at Nordstrom at 8:00 am, and see if they let you in.
Restaurants and cafes have hours, and for good reason. Perhaps the chef takes the afternoon off (because he or she rose at 4 am to start baking, say), and the waitstaff is not supposed to work in the kitchen. Is that "rigid"? No more so than the several cafes where I worked in the U.S. when young, where breakfast was absolutely not served after 10:30 am, no matter how hard the customer (or I on his behalf) would beg. Turns out that they turn up the heat on the grill at 10:30, and it's too hot to cook eggs. So no more breakfast.
Your post is misleading. I think your real intent is to imply that people in Spain are somehow lacking in industriousness, because of the "traditional" siesta. But they then work until 7 or 8 in the evening. Imagine their surprise if they come to small town U.S.A and find the sidewalks rolled up at 6 pm. Apparently you think they should change their ways just to accomodate your wishes to eat whenver you please. But most tourists learn to adapt to their host country's ways, as they should. You might consider giving it a try, world traveler that you are.
Restaurants and cafes have hours, and for good reason. Perhaps the chef takes the afternoon off (because he or she rose at 4 am to start baking, say), and the waitstaff is not supposed to work in the kitchen. Is that "rigid"? No more so than the several cafes where I worked in the U.S. when young, where breakfast was absolutely not served after 10:30 am, no matter how hard the customer (or I on his behalf) would beg. Turns out that they turn up the heat on the grill at 10:30, and it's too hot to cook eggs. So no more breakfast.
Your post is misleading. I think your real intent is to imply that people in Spain are somehow lacking in industriousness, because of the "traditional" siesta. But they then work until 7 or 8 in the evening. Imagine their surprise if they come to small town U.S.A and find the sidewalks rolled up at 6 pm. Apparently you think they should change their ways just to accomodate your wishes to eat whenver you please. But most tourists learn to adapt to their host country's ways, as they should. You might consider giving it a try, world traveler that you are.
Jul 18th, 2006, 05:27 PM
#103
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Some of you people can't be serious. I love many things about Europe and value the cultural differences, but flexibility about rules is not a typical European quality. I have a number of German friends who worked in the USA for several years and then were transferred home and they all said they liked the flexibility in the US. I could give a number of examples, but I think some here are listening for a value judgement and its just a difference. One of many. Europe is so much better in many ways, just don't try to defend all differences. BTW, I'm not sure all European countries tend to be equally inflexible at times. Its long been said that Germans in particular like to follow rules.
As for graffiti, I haven't been to SF in a while, but US cities had more graffiti in the 70's and Europe has more now. I don't think that is a unique observation or a condemnation of all things European.
As for graffiti, I haven't been to SF in a while, but US cities had more graffiti in the 70's and Europe has more now. I don't think that is a unique observation or a condemnation of all things European.
Jul 18th, 2006, 06:01 PM
#104
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Nora S, I think you are right: only rarely, if ever, is there any connection between business decisions and traditions (or cultural ways, or whatever we agree to call them.)Which is precisely why scrutinizing business decisions shouldn't automatically be taken as being disrespectful to a country's culture.
If one can seek to institute change in such a way as to ensure the change will bring mutual gain, then surely seeking change from a business isn't wrong. Impractical, perhaps, in the case of individual travellers - but not wrong. If enough customers are involved - if one can gather together an entire group of people - it might very well be feasible (read: profitable) for a business to change, at least temporarily. (Of course, this is assuming local laws permit such arrangements.)
Cindiloowho, in fairness to Europeans, their economy up until the 1990s grew faster than the U.S. economy, and seems to be doing so again. This suggests they are innovative and open to change. For that matter, the E.U. itself is something of an innovation (although like all innovations, not everyone heralds it as an unmitigated success.) That we as individual travellers occasionally run into inconvenient situations should not be taken to mean that inconvenience is somehow championed in Europe as the price of tradition.
If one can seek to institute change in such a way as to ensure the change will bring mutual gain, then surely seeking change from a business isn't wrong. Impractical, perhaps, in the case of individual travellers - but not wrong. If enough customers are involved - if one can gather together an entire group of people - it might very well be feasible (read: profitable) for a business to change, at least temporarily. (Of course, this is assuming local laws permit such arrangements.)
Cindiloowho, in fairness to Europeans, their economy up until the 1990s grew faster than the U.S. economy, and seems to be doing so again. This suggests they are innovative and open to change. For that matter, the E.U. itself is something of an innovation (although like all innovations, not everyone heralds it as an unmitigated success.) That we as individual travellers occasionally run into inconvenient situations should not be taken to mean that inconvenience is somehow championed in Europe as the price of tradition.
Jul 18th, 2006, 06:24 PM
#105
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"in fairness to Europeans, their economy up until the 1990s grew faster than the U.S. economy, and seems to be doing so again. This suggests they are innovative and open to change."
That's not exactly a true statement. Some countries such as Ireland are showing good growth and economic flexibility while others such as Germany show little growth. EU economic growth is a fraction of the US and has around double the unemployed. That is not necessarily a measurement of quality of life, as many here would quickly say.
That's not exactly a true statement. Some countries such as Ireland are showing good growth and economic flexibility while others such as Germany show little growth. EU economic growth is a fraction of the US and has around double the unemployed. That is not necessarily a measurement of quality of life, as many here would quickly say.
Jul 18th, 2006, 06:27 PM
#106
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I would hardly call the EU an "innovation" given that it's been around since the Treaty of Rome formed the original EEC in 1959, which then morphed, through the Treaty of Maastricht, into the present EU.
The EU can't even get a constitution passed among the member states, so it can hardly be termed a "success"- if anything, the member states are retreating ever more from the idea of a United States of Europe, in favor of more nationalistic policies that are antithetical to the EU agenda. These policies are coming about in part because of rising resentment by the richer EU states having to shoulder much of the economic burden for the newer, and much poorer, incoming states. The point being that the EU, as an entity, needs to get their act together far more than it is doing now if they are going to compete in any real way with the Asian powerhouse which is coming on oh so strong. Spain, in my book, is a perfect example of what's wrong with hidebound European thinking in general, and aimless EU economic policy in particular.
The EU can't even get a constitution passed among the member states, so it can hardly be termed a "success"- if anything, the member states are retreating ever more from the idea of a United States of Europe, in favor of more nationalistic policies that are antithetical to the EU agenda. These policies are coming about in part because of rising resentment by the richer EU states having to shoulder much of the economic burden for the newer, and much poorer, incoming states. The point being that the EU, as an entity, needs to get their act together far more than it is doing now if they are going to compete in any real way with the Asian powerhouse which is coming on oh so strong. Spain, in my book, is a perfect example of what's wrong with hidebound European thinking in general, and aimless EU economic policy in particular.
Jul 18th, 2006, 07:12 PM
#108
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Eastern Europe is full of it...(also lots of garbage and debris everywhere). Perhaps there is no penalty for doing it, or if there is, it is unenforceable, or lastly, maybe no tradition for this. (Opps! there's that word again). There is little, probably none, in Singapore, as it carries a large fine, or whipping. Value and tradition.
Jul 18th, 2006, 07:41 PM
#109
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(Disclaimer: NOT US-bashing comment):
The Germans (Daimler-Benz) are running Chrysler, the French and Japanese (Renault-Nissan) are moving in on GM, Ford isn't looking that much better, Airbus Industrie is challenging Boeing's dominance, and last I heard the French (Alcatel) were taking over Lucent, once part of the mighty AT&T empire. European countries are also leading research into new energy sources. What price "rigidity" and "inflexibility"?
America remains well ahead in IT and many other science/technology areas, and I'd like to think it will hold its position, but surely it would be foolish to write off the Europeans. Nor the tenacious Japanese, a people not usually associated with the term "behavioural flexibility". And China is only just beginning its inexorable rise. I'd hate to think that the mass of Americans reflect the complacency of a couple of posters here - that would be a great pity.
The Germans (Daimler-Benz) are running Chrysler, the French and Japanese (Renault-Nissan) are moving in on GM, Ford isn't looking that much better, Airbus Industrie is challenging Boeing's dominance, and last I heard the French (Alcatel) were taking over Lucent, once part of the mighty AT&T empire. European countries are also leading research into new energy sources. What price "rigidity" and "inflexibility"?
America remains well ahead in IT and many other science/technology areas, and I'd like to think it will hold its position, but surely it would be foolish to write off the Europeans. Nor the tenacious Japanese, a people not usually associated with the term "behavioural flexibility". And China is only just beginning its inexorable rise. I'd hate to think that the mass of Americans reflect the complacency of a couple of posters here - that would be a great pity.
Jul 18th, 2006, 08:54 PM
#110
Don't even humor her any more - the more she rants the sillier things sound. Now whippings in Singapore are a good solution for littering.
I don't think it is Eastern Europe that is "full of it".
I don't think it is Eastern Europe that is "full of it".
Jul 18th, 2006, 09:22 PM
#111
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I think I've lost track...
Is graffiti and litter evidence of rigidly following the rules or evidence of not following the rules?
Tradition is a funny thing. Left up long enough, the next thing you know, it's religion. But I think what we're really talking about here is societal habit, and not tradition at all. People do what works for them, don't they? If it wasn't working, they'd do something else. I doubt many local restaurant owners are considering their place in the global marketplace. If their neighborhood rivals are closed and you're fine making enough to feed the family, then shoot... I'd go home for a nap too.
Is graffiti and litter evidence of rigidly following the rules or evidence of not following the rules?
Tradition is a funny thing. Left up long enough, the next thing you know, it's religion. But I think what we're really talking about here is societal habit, and not tradition at all. People do what works for them, don't they? If it wasn't working, they'd do something else. I doubt many local restaurant owners are considering their place in the global marketplace. If their neighborhood rivals are closed and you're fine making enough to feed the family, then shoot... I'd go home for a nap too.
Jul 19th, 2006, 01:05 AM
#113
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Europeans recognize Americans by their physical profile. Unless the European is in the tourist business they avoid contact with them. Ms. C complains that Europeans are inflexible! It seems to me that she is the inflexible one. I remember one customer with wry amusement. She demanded a reduction in her dinner bill. "I didn't eat the broccoli". We agreed, but then told her we would have to charge her for the two extra baked potatoes her husband and eaten as well as the extra dessert her son had. Flexible?
Jul 19th, 2006, 01:30 AM
#114
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I couldn't let this pass, on a different thread cindiloowho wrote:
<<and eat where the locals do (take a little effort to learn at least a few phrases in their language), ..... and remain flexible.>>
Geordie
<<and eat where the locals do (take a little effort to learn at least a few phrases in their language), ..... and remain flexible.>>
Geordie
Jul 19th, 2006, 02:27 AM
#115
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This may rank as one of the sillier threads I have ever seen. Why is there graffiti in Europe? I don't know why is there so much violent crime in the US? Every country has problems.
Having lived in Europe, I agree there are certain things you have to get used to, including opening hours. But I do question why you weren't flexible enough to go find another place to eat, maybe stop by the butcher shop buy some meat and stop at the baker and buy a little bread.
Having lived in Europe, I agree there are certain things you have to get used to, including opening hours. But I do question why you weren't flexible enough to go find another place to eat, maybe stop by the butcher shop buy some meat and stop at the baker and buy a little bread.
Jul 19th, 2006, 03:00 AM
#116
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"Europeans recognize Americans by their physical profile. Unless the European is in the tourist business they avoid contact with them."
Please announce the name of your restaurant, Steed, that those of us who find your attitude stupendously rude might all avoid it.
Please announce the name of your restaurant, Steed, that those of us who find your attitude stupendously rude might all avoid it.
Jul 19th, 2006, 03:47 AM
#117
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So, if I visit the States (let's say NY) I can expect not to see a single graffitti, I will have lunch at 3 PM like here in Spain , I will have dinner at 11 PM , I will go to the theatre at 10 PM when the show begins (just like at home !!), the waiters will not look at me while I eat because they want me to finish soon..my god, it's true, people there it's really flexible !!
Jul 19th, 2006, 06:49 AM
#118
to answer cindiloo's question <<Where do you live.? Any why do you feel so strong on this subject?>>
I live in Seattle proper, you know, Seattle the city, downtown. I don't feel strongly on the subject of graffiti, I just think this posting is incredibly stupid. And the more you talk the worse it gets.
I live in Seattle proper, you know, Seattle the city, downtown. I don't feel strongly on the subject of graffiti, I just think this posting is incredibly stupid. And the more you talk the worse it gets.
Jul 19th, 2006, 07:52 AM
#119
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cindiloowho - Europeans inflexible? Just because another culture doesn’t choose to adopt the “faster, newer, improved, 24-hour open equals better” attitude of many Americans, does not mean they are inflexible.
Regardless of the fact that you have visited/lived in many countries, you seem to be (from your postings) the kind of woman who would be better off visiting EPCOT for their international experiences…that way, everything would be to your liking…
I thought that people traveled not only to see other places, but to experience the diversity of other cultures…both good and bad. What a boring place the world would be if we were all alike.
And lastly, I have no idea where this quote came from, but I think it’s somewhat appropriate: "You can choose to be a tourist and expect to find everything you have at home to be there for you, or you can be a traveler and leave everything that is familiar behind and embrace what lies ahead."
Regardless of the fact that you have visited/lived in many countries, you seem to be (from your postings) the kind of woman who would be better off visiting EPCOT for their international experiences…that way, everything would be to your liking…
I thought that people traveled not only to see other places, but to experience the diversity of other cultures…both good and bad. What a boring place the world would be if we were all alike.
And lastly, I have no idea where this quote came from, but I think it’s somewhat appropriate: "You can choose to be a tourist and expect to find everything you have at home to be there for you, or you can be a traveler and leave everything that is familiar behind and embrace what lies ahead."
Jul 19th, 2006, 08:10 AM
#120
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From Cindiloo's post it sounds like the Middle East is way more inflexible than Europe/Spain. Maybe she ought to post about that on the appropriate board. Certainly it's a more important issue than not being served lunch at a certain time.
