P_M

Would it have been kinder not to tip for good service?

Travel_Nerd

And now this will descend into chaos. Tipping, in general, is NOT customary in Europe. This is just ONE of the many topics on it, there are many others: Tippping question in hotels?? I can pull up more (as there are many) but yeah...

This is ingrained into Americans. And no, when I am in Europe, I do not leave a tip unless I can be sure there is not already a service charge tacked on to the bill (hotel, restaurant, etc.). I may leave a euro or two in change (bill 19E, leave a 20) but that is it.

bilboburgler

this is a culture question, long term I think it destroys a culture. Do you think to do this when you say visit the Forum in Rome? It might be nicer to screw up some shade in the Parthenon. But you don't. So why do this?

scrb11

From Rick Steve's forum, there's a thread about a NY Times column in which an Italian from Bologna complains about overtourism in that city, especially food tours and the proliferation of chain mortadella shops and vendors selling fried tortellini to go on paper cones.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/09/o...smid=url-share

scrb11

I can't read the article but there's also a piece in the NY Times today about over tourism in Barcelona and the protests, especially on the eve of the America's Cup starting there this week.

I don't know if that event is a big spectator sport or attracts more tourists at this time of the year than they otherwise would have.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/20/t...barcelona.html

Madam397

I've been to Barcelona and Spain in general 3x in my life. The first was in a post-college 4 month trip throughout Europe and this will date me, but Franco was still alive and in power. My roommate and I were both fluent Spanish speakers and I had been an art history major. We traveled by train and in those days, there wasn't anything about traveling in train in Spain that would resemble travel by train today. It was highly unusual and probably close to unheard of in Spain for two young women to be out and about on their own as we only saw young women out with chaperones. We walked into the Sagrada Familia and were the only people there. Of course it as barely being worked on. Within the decade I returned with my husband on a 3 week driving trip. Still had no problem walking into the Sagrada Familia or other Gaudi sites. The waterfront was still a working port. What had changed after Franco's death was the explosion of pornography. Even in the smallest towns, there were posters and advertisements plastered all over the place. Also now that Franco had died, the Picasso Museum opened in Barcelona as Picasso would not permit any of his work to be shown while Franco was alive.
We returned to Barcelona in 2010 for a short trip and it was an entirely different place! The entire waterfront had been cleared and developed for the Olympics. It was a two hour wait to enter the Sagrada Familia and other Gaudi sites.

Would I go back? Possibly but only as part of a trip to the Costa Brava as I've never been there and would be interested to visit that area. Certainly have no desire to be walking along the Ramblas again. In retrospect I feel fortunate that I was able to travel and experience what I did when I was able to do so, although today I would enjoy a few finer meals!

scrb11

Ramblas is more cleaned up, the buildings on both sides. I went a couple of years ago and saw things I didn't remember seeing in the mid 2000s.

However, some of those buildings are in fact corporate storefronts, though I think even some of those had some interesting decorative facades. Like one with umbrellas of different sizes and colors.

cdnyul

Over thirty million tourists annually plus daily cargo of floating petri dishes.
Whatever culture there was is long gone..

twk

I understand the pushback, but I'm not sure if there are simple solutions.

For a place like Venice, you could just about treat the city as a gated attraction and charge admission, but for a real city like Barcelona, that's not an option. So, you are probably relegated to trying to shape your tourist market by shaping the market for lodging. I'm not casting aspersions on cruise lines, but the flood caused by huge cruise ships disgorging waves of thousands of daytrip passengers would seem like a juicy target. However, the cruise terminals and businesses that rely on them would see their value wiped out if Barcelona divorced itself from the cruise business. Similarly, you can seek to eliminate short term rentals through regulation, but if you do that, you will hurt property values for their owners most of whom, I suspect, are locals who, collectively, would have more influence than people looking for cheaper long term rentals. Whatever they do in this regard, there will be losers, so it will be interesting to see whose ox gets gored.

bilboburgler

Kinda of why we democracies I guess

zebec

Regarding the above, I envision being one of the Barcelona/Venice city officials negotiating with the representatives of the most powerful business owners, including organized crime.
Just imagine sitting across from one of their slickly-dressed lawyers as the two of you sip coffee together, isolated in the lobby of some six-star hotel.

Lawyer (after carefully placing cup back onto saucer):
"So Councillor Piccone (or instead replace with 'Councillor Ruiz'). Senor Corleone (or replace with 'Senor del Rey') is not pleased with the suggestions that you..."
Councillor (interrupts with nervous voice): "Uh, a-actually those were not suggestions. Those were the f-five new laws that council is preparing to enact into law."

The lawyer avoids eye contact as he brings the coffee cup back to his lips. Then he clears his throat.
Lawyer (as though speaking to a subordinate):
"Ahem. As I said. Senor Corleone and his daughter also I might add, are not pleased with those... 'suggestions.' They have a different opinion."

I am done. the horse's head

EnricM

Did you know that tourism "only" accounts for about 15% of Barcelona's GDP? The city doesn't really need "that much" tourism (thankfully), because fortunately, since the Industrial Revolution, Barcelona has a wide range of revenue streams from the automotive, chemical, and food industries, exports, and the service industry, and more recently from tech hubs and the startup ecosystem, among others.

Don’t get me wrong, tourism is another part of the city’s economy, but when you do a cost-benefit analysis, a few things stand out:

• The cost of increasing public services (which are already stretched thin)—like cleaning, security, public transport, and healthcare—to meet the demands of millions of visitors each year doesn’t necessarily balance out the revenue gained from taxes on their spending.
• It’s mostly the "big" companies—hotel and restaurant chains—that truly profit from all this tourism, not so much the small local businesses -with some exceptions, depending on location. And don’t be mistaken: most of the restaurants and shops in the city are owned by small businesses.
• Barcelona is a city that, due to its geographical limits (and city regulations), can’t expand any more in any direction. So, more people in the same space means overcrowding, long lines, and packed places, which is uncomfortable for everyone—residents and tourists alike.
• Barcelona, like any other city, isn’t a theme park made for tourists’ enjoyment. It’s a city with 1.6 million residents where tourism is welcome, "as long as it doesn’t disrupt daily life too much"—a totally understandable stance, right?

What’s the attitude of residents towards tourism? Mostly apathetic, similar to Parisians, Londoners, or Romans in their heavily visited cities. They’re indifferent, as long as it doesn’t mess with their day-to-day lives. In the long run, everyone agrees that the constant increase in visitors can’t go on forever, so the city is looking for ways to stabilize the number of tourists each year. How? Well, that’s the million-dollar question.

So, what's all this about "anti-tourism"? Well, for one, we should be mature enough to realize that 21st-century media have shifted from being objective sources of information to sensationalist outlets—anything that sells, goes. And on the other hand, generalizing the attitude of 1,000 residents in a city of 1.6 million seems a bit irresponsible, don’t you think? And who are these 1,000, 2,000, or 3,000 residents? Most likely, they’re some of the ones directly impacted by the overcrowding that tourism brings and have reached the limit of their patience -and some join in simply because they’re anti-establishment or against anything that "generates" wealth (for others, of course).

But I suspect that in the not-so-distant future, cities like Amsterdam, Barcelona, and Venice—each with geographical limits that prevent them from expanding to accommodate more tourists—will have to implement some sort of system akin to those used in private businesses: a visitor cap. Once it’s reached, no more tickets are sold. Just as no one complains when their favourite restaurant tells them, "Sorry, no tables available today, try again tomorrow," I suspect we’ll end up with something similar for tourism. How exactly? I’m not sure, but some sort of solution will have to be found.

bilboburgler

Tourism tax on beds, including beds on ships seems the simplest.
Edinburgh just brought in £5 a night I think. Just keep pushing it up until it works.

More logically I think the real solution is bring in carbon tax on international fuel usage. At the moment flights are excluded and shipping is reduced.

All we need is educated people in governments and a little positive action.

scrb11

They want to reduce the number of tourists but not necessarily reduce the amount of money that tourists currently bring in.

Smart but some hospitality businesses will benefit, others will suffer.

Question is whether the policy changes are made to benefit certain parties and whether the policies are implemented impartially.

maitaitom

I nearly sunk a cruise ship in Dubrovnik in 2008, but the cannon misfired.

zebec

LOL!!
I am done. the cannonball

Nikki

An article in the Times (gifted, I hope):

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/20/t...e=articleShare

Jean

Another read on the subject of overtourism:

https://www.cnn.com/travel/tourism-w...ong/index.html

scrb11

Thanks for the gift link.

Article says 150k people employed in tourism. Somewhere else they cited a total population of 1.6 million so 10% of the population depends on tourism?

Yet the city froze new hotels and limited short-term rentals and have investigators aggressively trying to find illegal rentals. What do they do, force the people who didn't know to leave the places they booked?

In any event, the city would like to keep the tourism money but by reducing the number of lodgings available, when they revoke the permits of short-term rentals in a few years, they will raise hotel rates and only the richer tourists can afford to visit.

Meanwhile, the number of short-term rentals have been frozen for 10 years, with Airbnb hosts required to register their permit number. Yet housing prices continued to grow because Spain, like many countries, aren't building more housing. It's the NIMBY effect. It's often owners or residents who don't want more housing built near their neighborhoods, especially big apartment buildings. That is exactly what happens in places like California.

Speaking of selfishness and hypocrisy, a lot of those residents protesting tourism themselves will be tourists in other countries too. So cut back on tourism so that they're not bothered at home but don't mind overcrowding and littering someone else's city or country when they go on holiday.

Traveler_Nick

Remember "tourism" is a pretty broad GDP category. The local bar, restaurant, or the beach lounger used by locals is "tourism".

https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicat...age%20of%20GVA.

5.5% of Spanish GDP

​​​​​​​That means the football stadium is included.