molker

Pal- I suppose that you only book airfare to give you complete flexibility and just a short time before traveling - thus paying a huge premium- I do not believe you do.
Perhaps you do not reserve accomodations in advance - thus not insuring the hotel,location, price , room type - arrive and then search for a room- get the one available - with situation you do not like - perhaps next to the elevator- smoking too.
I do not think so.

It becomes tiresome to see your constant "Pass argument wihout validity and most often having many posters saying your contention just wrong

Even more is your tendency to give advice most often needing correction.

First Class - most everyone including locals travel 2nd- same train, same time, no trouble storing luggage ( excepring those bringing most of their worldly possessions.

And often on regional routes - no first class passage at all. You sit next to be with your first class ticket- I sit with my cheap ticket.

Vienna- Salzburg - 25 euro- no advance - I buy on the train when I travel- double decked cars so no problem space wise- so much for flexibility.

Travelling internationally - I made my hotel reservation- why not my cheap train ticket too. I can use my money elsewhere.

PalenQ

Travelling internationally - I made my hotel reservation- why not my cheap train ticket too. I can use my money elsewhere.>

I have had over 50 1st class railpasses and have always found them to be a great value for me and many Europeans do travel in first class - there are inevitably 2-4 first class cars on an average long-distant train and Europeans indeed do travel in them and pay extra for the privilege - cheapest is not always the best.

And by flexibility I mean rolling out of bed in a hotel when I want to and getting to the station when I want to and if on the train I want to take a few-hour break in some city en route as I often do - no problem.

A few trips yes the discounted route makes sense but I think you fail to put yourself into the shoes of the average traveler on the trip of a lifetime where they will typically take several train trips and then the difference sometimes between a pass price - first class pass price - may not be that much more than a series of discounted second class restricted tickets and again they are not nearly always available as you seem to think - maybe in Austria they are but not so in other countries.

But yes the mantra seems to be if you can save one euro with 2nd class restricted tickets over a pass you are being ripped off by a pass.

I stand by my decades of European train travel that there is a world of difference between first and second class - no not on regional trains but most folks do not take those.

I will continue to present passes as a possibility and let the poster make their own calculations and choice - I never recommend a pass if there is not sufficient train travel to warrant looking at it.

thursdaysd

"coordinate such tickets for a multi-country journey just ain't as easy as it sounds often."

Nonsense. A few years back I traveled by train from Scotland to Saigon. <b>17,000 miles</b> plus a bunch more miles in detours I didn't count. I did not use a rail pass. I used a TA only for the Trans-Mongolian, and even for that I did all the research and specified which tickets I wanted.

I have traveled first class on a train one time, in France. It did not seem to me to be worth the cost.

I, too, am tired of seeing these posts lauding passes and first class travel <b>every</b> time someone wants to travel by train.

Huggy

So if you are tired of seeing his posts, just ignore it. I have used both a rail pss and individual tickets and found both to be worthwhile alternatives to my situation. This is a forum. Like so many posters have stated, one needs to do the math.

One of my enjoyments of this forum is to see the various thoughts of individuals. There is more than one solution to each situation.

kybourbon

>>>It becomes tiresome to see your constant "Pass argument wihout validity and most often having many posters saying your contention just wrong<<<

I agree. The OP asked what would be cheaper, not what someone had been doing for decades. Things have really changed in the last few years (dozens of budget airlines, train upgrades, etc.) and just because you've done something for decades doesn't mean it's the best or cheapest thing to do. Often flights are cheaper between long distances with so many budget airlines in Europe.

It's much easier to get discounts now that you can book them online. Everyone has a phone to access the internet so it's not like you can't book a day or two ahead.

>>>I, too, am tired of seeing these posts lauding passes and first class travel every time someone wants to travel by train.<<<

It's especially odd when the same person posts about staying in 1 star hotels/B&B's/hostels. I would much rather spend on my hotel than on a train ride. "Trip of a lifetime" to me doesn't mean 1st class train ride and a 1 star hotel.

PalenQ

I, too, am tired of seeing these posts lauding passes and first class travel every time someone wants to travel by train.>

so I should be silent and not advocate the way I and many others like to travel? Just because it annoys you?

No because I present an alternative info that folks like kybourbon never present even if viable - rather it is always 2nd class tickets booked months in advance that are in practice hard to change are the way to go even if they save only a relatively little money over a first-class pass.

Anyway I will continue to present both sides as I always (check my posts) do - I mention the discounted tickets as well as, if they are traveling enough, a pass and also do distinguish between first and second class and again I have traveled on zillions of trains in many countries - not just one country and I adamantly state that there is a lot of difference between the classes and that many Europeans indeed do pay more for the benefits of first class.

Now 2nd class is adequate but on the trip of a lifetime you will generally find a much more relaxed journey in first class for reasons I state above. Those who deny those reasons simply IMO have not had much overall experience riding trains all over Europe, not just in one country.

And for anyone who says no Europeans ride first class that is simply misinformation and shows a shallowness of experience.

As for the OP - going to Germany, Eastern Europe, Greece, Italy, Austria and back to Germany - well anyone taking that many trains should at least consider a pass - the boat ride - even deck passage between Greece and Italy that the pass covers may be worth $100 or so alone! - Anyway with such a wide-ranging itinerary in several countries to say that the OP should not even think about a railpass is simply silly - they should examine the cost of discounted tickets vs the pass and then make a judgment - if 2nd class tickets with severe restrictions on use even approach the cost of a first-class pass then it's a no-brainer - even though some here would say if you save a single euro then the pass is a rip-off.

I will continue to present both options, something others never ever do and will continue to describe the difference between 1st and 2nd classes something some others refuse to recognize.

And in the OP's position I would take a good look at a pass and not be snowed by misinformation that passes are always a rip-off.

molker

I think one person here seems too defensive. No one has advocated that someone remain silent.
Unfortunately it seems this person does not like it when someone seems to not agree with their postings and makes an opinion with facts.
Some seem to receive wrath as they are labelled as locals who only seem to use their own national network." Have not had much overall experience riding trains all over Europe " Strange for someone to say this not even knowing the individual,their travel habits, economic situation , travel desires etc.


Perhaps it is just the poster ,who finds most not agreeing with his posting advice, has been frequently corrected for posting inaccurate info, by those who have had recent experiences on individual subjects.

Times change - trains now have rejested steam and move on. Their services change also.

I personally have a life other than this forum, become tired of this type of thing seen above. It seems I am not alone. Poster Pal
probably remembers the numerous postings I have personnally made to corect bad information that he supplied.

Point of view is one thing- just bad info is another.

PalenQ

That said I will continue to advocate that railpasses be at least mentioned as a possibility when warranted - for the reasons I always do. Something I have never ever heard you mention - to you it is always foolish to even mention a railpass. Well you post what you want and let me do as well without your attacks on my vcharacter, etc.

molker

An attack on character ? I have better things to do.Perhaps warrented correction of inaccurate advice or mention of beind defensive.
Enough from me- other posters already make their their own judgments