javafan1

This is my first time visiting Europe and I am very confused by the whole train ticketing system. I am travelling with my wife and 2 teengers. I will have 3 long hall travel days over a three week duration.

Paris to Lauterbrunnen, Switzerland
Lauterbrunnen to Venice
Venice to Rome
Maybe 2 train day trips from Rome and Paris and some rail in the Swiss Alps

Some questions:
- I dont know if I can trust the RailSaver.com site for the 3 Country Pass/5 Travel Day pass comparison since I won't be travelling until August. So far using the site61.com and direct country train sites, I was only able to pull up limited prices. Some looked expensive. Should I wait until I in the 90 day window to compare prices?
- Is there any advantage for buying the rail pass in switzerland for discount tickets or jungfrau, etc?
- Looks like seat reservations for the long haul travel days will eat into any pass savings, right?
- If I go with the rail pass, is there any advantage to buying early?
- If I don't go with the rail pass, should I wait and buy the tickets in Europe or buy direct from country train sites and pick up at station when I arrive from US?
- Any other considerations I am missing?

Thanks for any help.

PalenQ

If traveling first class, as the railpass is if you are over 25 and desiring full flexibility to chose which trains to take once there and not pre-book weeks early to score limited in number online discounted tickets that typically cannot be changed nor refunded - lock yourself in concrete - but that would be the cheapest way for you - 2nd class online discounts.

But you lose flexibility and it is 2nd class - I have ridden European trains for decades and IMe first class for folks on the trip of a lifetime is definitely worth the money and if you compare fully flexible first class fares to the pass cost I think the pass would be the best. firs class is in many ways much more relaxed than 2nd class - larger seats, lots more room to stow luggage - usually lots of empty seats IME - 2nd class can always be chock full - fending for luggage room in perhaps already jammed overhead luggage racks, etc.

Do not judge the efficacy of a railpass IMO just on total costs

Check out these IMO fab sites that will answer most of your questions - www.ricksteves.com; www.seat61.com (as you note) and www.budgeteuropetravel.com (if you want to talk to some expert on phone call Byron at this site - I have bought railpasses from him for years and he or others there will always IME answer questions regardless of whether you have bought or are buying anything).

Summation - pass may not be the cheapest way to go but a first-class pass may be the best deal IMO.

PalenQ

- Is there any advantage for buying the rail pass in switzerland for discount tickets or jungfrau, etc?>

A Eurailpass also gives discounts of 25% on trains from Interlaken-ost to Jungfraujoch and back.

adrienne

<< Should I wait until I in the 90 day window to compare prices >>

I would pick a date 90 days from today to see what the prices are so you have some idea of what you'll pay.

<< If I don't go with the rail pass, should I wait and buy the tickets in Europe >>

Do not wait to buy the ticket from Paris to Switzerland as the best prices are 90 days out - called PREM fares. The closer to your travel date the more expensive the ticket. You can buy etickets on line.

Rail pass holders have limited seat reservations on French trains so you should buy the seat reservation when you buy the pass, especially as you need 4 seats.

When you choose which train you will take be sure to look at transfer times. For instance, the 10:23 train Paris to Lauterbrunnen (which only takes 5.5 hours) has a 5 minute transfer in Basel. I think that is a close call for 4 people, especially as 2 of them are teenagers who tend to dawdle. I would also look for trains with the fewest number of transfers.

I think 2nd class seats are fine and they allow you to save money when you multiply by 4.

kybourbon

>>>I dont know if I can trust the RailSaver.com site for the 3 Country Pass/5 Travel Day pass comparison since I won't be travelling until August.<<<

In the past, railsaver didn't take into account any discounted tickets. I don't believe it factors in the cost of seat reservations which is mandatory on some trains (especially international and Italian trains).

>>>So far using the site61.com and direct country train sites, I was only able to pull up limited prices.<<<

Not quite sure what you mean by this. Which routes weren't you able to get prices for? What dates are you pricing?

>>>Lauterbrunnen to Venice<<<

This leg appears to be a nightmare with many train changes required when info is entered on sbb.ch.

I would price Paris/Basel and see if you get discounts. Sometimes the discounts are only between major cities. It may be buying a Swiss Family Card will be your best option as your kids would travel free if under age 16. If that doesn't work, the Swiss Half Fare Card might or one of the Swiss passes.
http://www.swisstravelsystem.ch/en/c...ckets/tickets/

For Venice/Rome, you shouldn't have a problem finding discount tickets on Trenitalia for August unless your travel is on a weekend. I entered a random date in August and found discount tickets for 9€ on the fast AV train. These tickets can be purchased now as Trenitalia lets you buy 4 months in advance.

Day trips from Rome probably will be cheap by train as they will likely be on the slow R trains (don't buy R tickets in advance), but of course, it depends on where you plan to go. For example, a ticket from Rome to Orvieto is only 7€ one way.

kybourbon

FYI - Your kids are considered adults in Italy so don't qualify for the family discount (you must be 12 or under for family discount in Italy). You can book through the first week of Sept. right now on Trenitalia. Here's an example of the discounted ticket for a random date the first week of Sept. (noticed you were traveling three weeks so not sure of your date). This is for an AV train (the newest/fastest trains in Italy). I priced this ticket for 9/4.

Venezia S. Lucia
08:57 Roma Termini 12:40 03:43
FRECCIARGENTO 9413
Details
2ª CLASSE

MINI - 46.00 €

BASE - 304.00 €

These prices are for all four people. You can see how much you save by booking the Mini Fare over the Base Fare. A savings of 258€ on this one ticket for your family. The same price was also available for the AV train departing an hour later. This is a picture of 2nd class on these AV trains.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ssainterno.jpg

PalenQ

So for flexibility to chose which trains to take once there the pass may be the best option and it is also first class a BIG plus IMO and IME for a family of 4 especially - vs online tickets that like Lauterbrunnen to Venice 'can be a nightmare' with so many changes - online 2nd class tickets that can be really cheap but if you miss the train you are out of luck and have the them buy a full fare ticket on site - a pass can be used on any train - if late on connections just re-book if seat reservations are mandated (only on the French and Italian portions they are - not once you get to Basel or from Lauterbrunnen to Italian border - hop any trains then (Lauterbrunnen to Interlaken however just 25% discount with railpass but it is a cheap fare to begin with.

1st class railpass IMO would be your best bet - not the cheapest but for what it gives - lots more empty seats, easier stowing luggage, bigger seats and flexibility to take which trains you want once there - IMO your best bet. So as well as the 9 euro hyped fares consider the severe conditions that come with those tickets that those pushing them never mention it seems - and be prepared to spend lots of time online as there have been many complaints about using trenitalia.com in recent weeks on Fodors - not the walk in the park many make it out to be - at least for novice users - old pros of course do not seem to understand that but it is a fact - many complaints about frustrations with trenitalia.com.

PalenQ

a new factor to consider is the current special on Eurailpasses - Select Passes where you get an extra day free if you buy by some deadline and then can activate the pass anytime within six months of issue - I just saw it and will get more details. The extra day could make a difference - can be used in any country.

kybourbon

>>>1st class railpass IMO would be your best bet<<<

How can you even say that without knowing the OP's entire itinerary? It's more than likely the most expensive thing they can do costing them hundreds of euro more. The OP's best option is probably point-to-point from Paris to Switzerland, a Swiss Family Card and discounted tickets for Italy purchased from Trenitalia. They will save hundreds of euro booking that way.

Buying discount train tickets is no different than buying airline tickets. It's rare for anyone to pay full price for fully flexible airline tickets except for last minute business travelers. The majority of people flying are on discounted tickets that aren't flexible. You should quit trying to scare people into your 1st class pass push.

javafan1

Here is my own comparison of RailEurope 3 Country/5 Day Selectpass(RE) vs discounted Point-to-Point tickets(P2P) per person:

RailEurope(RE): 399 USD (307e) Without required seat reservations (Select50 Rate)
Point-2-Point(P2P): 261 USD (201e) Seat reservations included I think

Details of Point to Point discounted ticket per person:
Paris to Lauterbrunnen (Aug 6) on voyages-sncf.com: 99.6e PREM fare (108e on tgv-europe.com)
Lauterbrunnen to Venice on sbb.ch (Aug 11): 83e special offer
Venice to Rome on Tentalia.com (Aug 15): 19e MINI fare

Here are other considerations to ponder:
- RE includes first class travel, P2P travel is second class
- RE includes 2 more bonus travel days that I could use for Rome and Paris day trips
- RE does not include estimated seat reservations (10-60e per person?)
- RE passes have quotas that may block travel on some trains?
- P2P Discounted rates look like are for very early or very late trains. RE tickets can be used for any trains. No need to wake up at 4 am to catch a 6 am train (or carry around bags all day for late train departure)
- RE gives more flexibility over missed trains(Tickets for Paris to Lauterbrunnen itinerary has a stop that is only 5 minutes tranfer in Basel. If I miss this transfer I will need to buy another P2P ticket to continue to Lauterbrunnen, right?)

Some Questions:
- Why have some suggested a Swiss family pass ( My 2 kids are 15,16 years old)? Do I need this for 5 days in Switzerland? Are the local trains, gondolas, funiculars so expensive that a Swiss pass is helpful? Can this be combined with RE pass to reduce cost of P2P tickets?
- Is now a good time to book PREM and Mini fares for August travel, or should I wait for for better discounts later?
- Will RE Passes quotas be restricted for travel in August? If so, should I also book seat reservations before I leave?

Thanks very much for your feedback. This is all so confusing.

PalenQ

http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/ - Just saw on this site that if you buy a Eurail Select Pass before May 30 and activate it no later than six months from that date - Nov 30 (for the 2-month period and still can use it for the whole 2 months after activation) you get, on 6-day or logner passes, a free extra day.

And IMo remember when comparing pricing flexibility is nice - the discounted cheapest tickets cannot be changed nor refunded

and the point to point fares given above I believe are 2nd class - he/she compared them to the cost of a first class pass - well IME of decades of European rail travel there is a very significant difference between first and second class and also in having flexibility to chose which trains you want to take once there and then with the pass if you miss one train you can use it on another.

Do not judge efficacy of a pass simply by you can do it cheaper - I strongly urge anyone on the trip of a lifetime to go first class - a much much more relaxed journey IME.

PalenQ

RE passes have quotas that may block travel on some trains?>

only in France to my knowledge and mainly there on the popular paris-Lyon-Avignon-Nice line - you should have no problem getting the seat reservations on Paris to Switzerland trains - not long ago I booked a seat on the TGV-Est line a day before travel (line to Basel) - there are three options to go between Paris and Switzerland - via Basel or TGVs to Geneva and Lausanne - so lots of options. You will have no problem IME getting other seat reservations that are required.

PalenQ

Why have some suggested a Swiss family pass ( My 2 kids are 15,16 years old)? Do I need this for 5 days in Switzerland? Are the local trains, gondolas, funiculars so expensive that a Swiss pass is helpful? Can this be combined with RE pass to reduce cost of P2P tickets?>

a Swiss family Pass comes free with a Swiss Pass and I think can be bought separately for $35 or so - and my understanding is that then you buy regular tickets or have a pass to cover travel then any kid 15 and under goes free - even on very pricey things like the Jungfraujoch trains. But the 16 does not qualify I believe so it would just be for one kid and IMO not worth the $35

But a 4-consecutive-day Swiss Pass with a free Family Pass for the under 16 yr old could be the best for you and then do the online discounted tickets to get to Switzerland and once in Italy - it would cover even the trains to Lauterbrunnen in full - Eurail only gives a 25% discount and Swiss Pass also covers many things in Lauterbrunnen area a Eurailpass does not cover. Swiss Pass info -http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/id3.html and www.ricksteves.com or www.swisstravelsystem.com for prices in Swiss francs - but Swiss Passes often the past several years significantly cheaper if bought in US than there for some reason - but is not always the case. The 4-day Swiss Pass and point to point to Basel and from the Swiss border into Italy may be your cheapest bet, figuring that the 15 yr old would go free on the Swiss Pass - the other three would go on a Saverpass - two or more traveling together on one pass. And once in Lauterbrunnen there are many things - wonderful excusions covered 100% by a Swiss Pass.

PalenQ

Will RE Passes quotas be restricted for travel in August? If so, should I also book seat reservations before I leave?>

Again the only restrictions on your route is on the TGV Paris to Switzerland - and these I guess to guarantee should be booked at time of pass purchase if doing that route - to give peace of mind. But now in France even though there are restrictions there is another passholder category - a higher supplement guarantees you a seat - at least no restrictions and treated like anyone else if the train is not sold out.

PalenQ

About the mini-fares like 19 euros - be sure you book them as early as possible and they are often here today gone tomorrow - do not count on a 19 euro mini fare in August unless you book it as soon as it comes on the system.

kybourbon

>>>Why have some suggested a Swiss family pass<<<
***Advantages at a glance
Children under age 16 travel free of charge when accompanied by at least one parent holding a Swiss Travel System ticket***
http://www.swisstravelsystem.com/en/...y-card-en.html

>>>Are the local trains, gondolas, funiculars so expensive that a Swiss pass is helpful?<<<

Yes. Switzerland is expensive, but it will depend on how much travel you are doing in Switzerland. That's why you need to look at the various Swiss passes.

>>>Will RE Passes quotas be restricted for travel in August?<<<

France has restrictions on the # of passholder seats, but Italy doesn't.

The seat supplement fee for the TGV from Paris with the pass is 20€.

>>>Is now a good time to book PREM and Mini fares for August travel, or should I wait for for better discounts later?<<<

The discounted tickets can and do sell out. Prems are available 90 days in advance. Mini Fares 120 days.

>>>Point-2-Point(P2P): 261 USD (201e) Seat reservations included I think<<<

Yes. For the trains you are currently pricing.

>>>P2P Discounted rates look like are for very early or very late trains.<<<

I see 19€ fares for your Aug 15 date for fast AV trains departing 9:27, 12:27, 12:57 so you really don't have to catch an early train.

PalenQ

France has restrictions on the # of passholder seats, but Italy doesn't>

dated info according to Man in Seat 61 - you can now always be sure of getting on French TGVs though you may have to pay a premium seat reservation fee of more than the usual 3 euros to do so - but you will get on - no more restrictions though the base 3 euro fee is limited in number but worst case scenario you'd pay about 15 euros I think as a supplement - well check www.seat61.com for updates on this recent change.

Sarastro

<i>you can now always be sure of getting on French TGVs</i>

Perhaps you are referring to a <i>surréservation</i> but the surréservation does not guarantee you a seat on any TGV; nor are surrévations available for any and all TGVs.

The SNCF estimates the number of possible no-shows on any given rail segment and may issue a surréservation to pass holders who ask and pay a separate fee. The surréservation is issued naming a car number only - no seat is assigned. If a seat is indeed available, the holder of a surréservation may occupy that seat as along as it remains unclaimed by a regular passenger who was previously assigned to it. This could have at any intermediate stop for example where passengers might board.

If an empty seat is not available, the holder of a surréservation ticket either stands or sits on the floor.

kybourbon

>>>>dated info according to Man in Seat 61 - you can now always be sure of getting on French TGVs though you may have to pay a premium seat reservation fee of more than the usual 3 euros to do so <<<<

I don't see that on his website. Rules are not the same for TGV in France and TGV to another country. I got the 20€ price of a seat from maninseat61's website (it actually says 21€). AFAIK on international TGV trains, you must have a seat reservation with a pass (note the words "reservation compulsory" for the train to Switzerland info below).

From maninseat61 website for TGV within France:

National trains:
In France, railpass holders must pay a fee and make a seat reservation to travel on almost all long-distance trains.
TGV high-speed trains: These run on most long distance routes, and seat reservation is compulsory. A supplement is charged which includes the reservation fee, €6 'off-peak', €18 'peak'. Places at the €6 rate are limited by a passholder 'quota', when that is sold out the fee becomes €18.

FOR TGV INTERNATIONAL TO SWITZERLAND:

International trains:
To Switzerland: Lyria TGV high-speed trains from Paris to Lausanne, Geneva, Basel, Bern & Zurich: If your pass covers both France and Switzerland, the fare is €9 in 2nd class or from €21 in 1st class (includes food). If your pass only covers France, the fare is about €35-€45. Reservation compulsory.

PalenQ

France has restrictions on the # of passholder seats, but Italy doesn't>>

Well Man in Seat 61 recently posted on fodor's that the SNCF changed policy vis-a-vis passholder seats - yes there is a limit on the 3 euro seat reservations but for I think about 15 euros if there are seats remaining then passholders can get them just as folks can buy them - exactly like in Italy I would think in this regard. The supplement may be higher on the TGV-Est line to Metz and Switzerland. But the fact is, according to THE MAN passholders now are treated like anyone else - if the train is not full they can make a seat reservation, albeit at a higher price than normal.

This is confirmed by bourbon's copy of the SNCF site as we are talking about France in the statement in question.