How Challenging Did You Find German to Learn?
Sep 22nd, 2012, 05:59 AM
#61
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sorry..
....have not mentioned Wffenrock...
sometimes, even my English seems to be fading...
True, subjunctive in Latin languages has to be used in numerous situations
and in the proper tense. Not easy .
No wonder English has become the language of the "world".
....have not mentioned Wffenrock...
sometimes, even my English seems to be fading...
True, subjunctive in Latin languages has to be used in numerous situations
and in the proper tense. Not easy .
No wonder English has become the language of the "world".
Sep 22nd, 2012, 06:40 AM
#62
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Annhig: Thanks for the suggestions. I will see if I can get them. I especially like the idea of putting them on my Kindle, but if I can't, I'll just tuck the names into my suitcase and buy them when I'm in Deutschland. As you describe them, they sound just like my cup of tea--or more appropriately, my stein of Bier.
Right after I posted yesterday, I got a Karl May for my Kindle.
Right after I posted yesterday, I got a Karl May for my Kindle.
Sep 22nd, 2012, 06:43 AM
#63
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Since many of you were talking books here, I just want to mention Wladimir Kaminer in case some of you have not discovered his books yet, because you may really enjoy his funny vignettes on life in Berlin that he observed as a foreigner. He was a young Russian Jew immigrant working as a DJ in Berlin but turned into a best seller german author. Check out some of his titles: Russendisko, Mein deutsches Dschungelbuch, Ich bin kein Berliner. Ein Reiseführer für faule Touristen, etc. I normally prefer audio books but his Russian accent is too painful so this is one entertaining author that has to be read.
Sep 22nd, 2012, 06:52 AM
#64
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Daniel: Here's my token of apology for hijacking your thread in my previous post. Below is a link for a free German lesson video series in Dutch starting with the numbers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ1QaWh6TgI
I thought you may enjoy learning basic German while enhancing your Dutch comprehension at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ1QaWh6TgI
I thought you may enjoy learning basic German while enhancing your Dutch comprehension at the same time.
Sep 22nd, 2012, 07:16 AM
#65
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Can I join in here instead of lurking?
I'd like to say I agree with the comments on the difficulty of learning German and the problems with word order,gender and cases. And of course the subjunctive, especially in Spanish.
My biggest problem with foreign languages is not reading, writing or listening to them, it's speaking. I don't know if it's because I was taught as a child that I always had to be correct and not make mistakes which are hard to hide when speaking! I think it's a fairly common problem.
And that's an interesting point from pegontheroad about your listener not expecting you to speak their language. I think you need to reach a certain level of competence before this happens, which is above the 'functional' or 'tourist' production.
Although I can function perfectly well in several languages, I can't seem to move on to the fluent level and I wonder if this only happens when you live in the target language culture.
Any thoughts?
I'd like to say I agree with the comments on the difficulty of learning German and the problems with word order,gender and cases. And of course the subjunctive, especially in Spanish.
My biggest problem with foreign languages is not reading, writing or listening to them, it's speaking. I don't know if it's because I was taught as a child that I always had to be correct and not make mistakes which are hard to hide when speaking! I think it's a fairly common problem.
And that's an interesting point from pegontheroad about your listener not expecting you to speak their language. I think you need to reach a certain level of competence before this happens, which is above the 'functional' or 'tourist' production.
Although I can function perfectly well in several languages, I can't seem to move on to the fluent level and I wonder if this only happens when you live in the target language culture.
Any thoughts?
Sep 22nd, 2012, 07:50 AM
#66
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Speking the language is , no doubt, most challenging ...
I never get a chance to speak Spanish unless I travel
And even in Spain (once a year) my interaction with. native speakers is mainly with
taxi drivers, waiters, merchants and hotel employees
( who often prefer to"practice" their English to letting me" practice" my Spanish.)
On my trip to Berlin, I was able to manage a question in German, but could
not understand a word of the reply.
I often realize that my knowledge of when to use imperfect or past subjunctive goes right
out the window when trying to concentrate on what the native speaker is saying.
Everyone would agree living in the language is the best way to learn it, but sooner or later
we have to come back home.
I never get a chance to speak Spanish unless I travel
And even in Spain (once a year) my interaction with. native speakers is mainly with
taxi drivers, waiters, merchants and hotel employees
( who often prefer to"practice" their English to letting me" practice" my Spanish.)
On my trip to Berlin, I was able to manage a question in German, but could
not understand a word of the reply.
I often realize that my knowledge of when to use imperfect or past subjunctive goes right
out the window when trying to concentrate on what the native speaker is saying.
Everyone would agree living in the language is the best way to learn it, but sooner or later
we have to come back home.
Sep 22nd, 2012, 07:55 AM
#67
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I second the suggestion to read Wladimir Kaminer. I picked up Russendisko on a trip to Berlin some years ago and really enjoyed it. A recent bestseller that is also worth reading is Ferdinand von Schirach's Schuld - a series of short crime tales based on his experience as a defending lawyer, what you might call whydunnits, but told in a deceptively simple, almost fairy-tale style - and all the more moving for it.
Sep 22nd, 2012, 08:59 AM
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I found it next to impossible to learn. To this day, I know about 3 words in German...ja, nein, bitte, auf wiedesehn or however it is spelled, guten tag, herr, herren wc.
Having said that...I was put in place once on a DB train going from Frankfurt to Paris when a DB official was doing some sort of survey walked up to me and asked me something in German. I politely said to him, I'm sorry I don't understand German. He looked at me like I was crazy and very sternly why not. I said it's too difficult for me. He laughed and said three year old children can speak Germanh. Certainly you can and moved on.
Having said that...I was put in place once on a DB train going from Frankfurt to Paris when a DB official was doing some sort of survey walked up to me and asked me something in German. I politely said to him, I'm sorry I don't understand German. He looked at me like I was crazy and very sternly why not. I said it's too difficult for me. He laughed and said three year old children can speak Germanh. Certainly you can and moved on.
Sep 22nd, 2012, 09:04 AM
#69
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<<I never get a chance to speak Spanish unless I travel. And even in Spain my interaction is mainly with taxi drivers, waiters, merchants and hotel employee>>
I have found that the best way to practice/maintain my speaking ability is to attend those fun "meet up" conversational groups in cafes/bars/restaurants in your area. It doesn't take as much time (about 2hrs)but it's high in content. Keep in mind that we should be considerate to select the appropriate group that matches our speaking skills so we're not dragging down people's flow of conversation. In my area I have met quite a number of working and retired professionals to carry good conversations. Sadly the Dutch group is no longer active, but there are numerous groups for conversing in German, French, Italian, and even Spanish. Typically the more advanced groups attract a lot of native speakers.
I have found that the best way to practice/maintain my speaking ability is to attend those fun "meet up" conversational groups in cafes/bars/restaurants in your area. It doesn't take as much time (about 2hrs)but it's high in content. Keep in mind that we should be considerate to select the appropriate group that matches our speaking skills so we're not dragging down people's flow of conversation. In my area I have met quite a number of working and retired professionals to carry good conversations. Sadly the Dutch group is no longer active, but there are numerous groups for conversing in German, French, Italian, and even Spanish. Typically the more advanced groups attract a lot of native speakers.
Sep 22nd, 2012, 09:17 AM
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xyz: LOL, I typically get that kind of insulting attitude from some French people IN the US. France is for me the most enjoyable european country to visit but yet I just don't have enough motivation to learn it properly beyond getting by.
Sep 22nd, 2012, 09:23 AM
#71
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I think the bit about selecting the right level is crucial. I have joined several of these and found that they frequently lapse into English because the people there are more concerned with putting forward their point of view rather than practicing their Spanish/French/German/Italian etc. They are good in theory but difficult to deal with in practice.
My experience is that the best group for me is one where the other participants don't speak my first language; as this is English, it's quite difficult to find a non-English-speaking group.
My experience is that the best group for me is one where the other participants don't speak my first language; as this is English, it's quite difficult to find a non-English-speaking group.
Sep 22nd, 2012, 10:42 AM
#72
thanks for the german book suggestions - we're going to be stuck at LHR for a while tomorrow so I might try to find them in the foreign literature section.
Daniel - please try not to have too many worries about word-order - it should you no difficulties give.
Daniel - please try not to have too many worries about word-order - it should you no difficulties give.
Sep 22nd, 2012, 11:59 AM
#73
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I found the best way to learn was in a semi private class with a good teacher.
unfortunately, it was a rather expensive undertaking.
In my very big city there are not many"meet up" groups . Even if one could join such a group,
what is missing is someone to correct one's grammar and/or pronunciation
Some learners and teachers hold a position that is more productive to just converse
without paying any attention to grammar or correct vocabulary. Does not work from me.
unfortunately, it was a rather expensive undertaking.
In my very big city there are not many"meet up" groups . Even if one could join such a group,
what is missing is someone to correct one's grammar and/or pronunciation
Some learners and teachers hold a position that is more productive to just converse
without paying any attention to grammar or correct vocabulary. Does not work from me.
Sep 22nd, 2012, 12:59 PM
#74
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Gertie-- I know what you mean about speaking. It wasn't until I let go of my desire to get the sentence perfect in French (about 15 years ago) that my ability in French-speaking started to improve by leaps & bounds. With time and practice, sentence structure improves, becomes more natural. Being tongue-tied due to perfectionism in my opinion is one of the biggest obstacles to improving one's linguistic skills.
Annhig-- I want with much sincerity to express that I your encouragement very much about word order appreciated.
DAX-- Thanks for the German numbers... Even though I've learned these in German half a lifetime ago, I can already see that even with numbers, I already have a bad tendency of using Dutch or some Dutch-German hybrid for their little "quiz on German numbers". Slecht Daniel. *slaps hand*
Annhig-- I want with much sincerity to express that I your encouragement very much about word order appreciated.
DAX-- Thanks for the German numbers... Even though I've learned these in German half a lifetime ago, I can already see that even with numbers, I already have a bad tendency of using Dutch or some Dutch-German hybrid for their little "quiz on German numbers". Slecht Daniel. *slaps hand*
Sep 22nd, 2012, 01:40 PM
#75
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Don't you think about using your foreign language in the target country that it's the line of least resistance: after a few words/sentences you settle into the best compromise. For me, in Germany that usually means English because their English is usually better than my German. In Nicaragua it was Spanish because they didn't speak English! Out of the main tourist centres I get my best chances to practise.
LOL Daniel, yes, letting go of perfectionism comes with age!
LOL Daniel, yes, letting go of perfectionism comes with age!
Sep 22nd, 2012, 02:49 PM
#76
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When I traveled in eastern Germany in 2009, I found that Germans, including hotel receptionists, tended not speak English well. I suspect that they had studied Russian instead of English as their second language.
That area was one of the few places where my German was better than their English. Oh, and at Bodenwerder, along the Fairy Tale Road, where the custodian at the Baron Münchhausen Museum told us the story of the "liar Baron" in German, presumably because his English wasn't good enough. It was a very funny story.
On the Fairy Tale Road trip, I traveled with a woman I had met at German Summer School of the Pacific. Our teacher used to rave about her writing, because she wrote German as well as a native German. BUT she was such a perfectionist that she wouldn't speak to Germans in German. She was afraid she'd make a mistake.
My German certainly wasn't as good as hers, but I don't generally have fear of speaking it.
My favorite German-speaking story: I was in Schwäbisch Hall, where there is a large Goethe Institute. I was at an outdoor cafe, where I ordered "Orangensaft und ein mittel-gekochtes Ei." A German woman at the next table gave me a big smile and said, "Gut gemacht!" (Well done!)
She could tell that I was a foreigner, and was impressed that my grammar (on that particular occasion, anyway) was perfect.
I get a big old grin on my face every time I think of this experience.
That area was one of the few places where my German was better than their English. Oh, and at Bodenwerder, along the Fairy Tale Road, where the custodian at the Baron Münchhausen Museum told us the story of the "liar Baron" in German, presumably because his English wasn't good enough. It was a very funny story.
On the Fairy Tale Road trip, I traveled with a woman I had met at German Summer School of the Pacific. Our teacher used to rave about her writing, because she wrote German as well as a native German. BUT she was such a perfectionist that she wouldn't speak to Germans in German. She was afraid she'd make a mistake.
My German certainly wasn't as good as hers, but I don't generally have fear of speaking it.
My favorite German-speaking story: I was in Schwäbisch Hall, where there is a large Goethe Institute. I was at an outdoor cafe, where I ordered "Orangensaft und ein mittel-gekochtes Ei." A German woman at the next table gave me a big smile and said, "Gut gemacht!" (Well done!)
She could tell that I was a foreigner, and was impressed that my grammar (on that particular occasion, anyway) was perfect.
I get a big old grin on my face every time I think of this experience.
Sep 22nd, 2012, 03:09 PM
#77
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It is true that speaking the language is very helpful in small towns or at railway stations..
Even in big city, like Munich, we had to look for a younger person who could explain
a metro transfer in English. A few older people we approached did not speak English at all.
Why would they.
But, as Peg said, it is very satisfying when a native speaker compliments you on the language.
Happened to me in a store in Venice, although , perhaps, the owner just wanted to make a sale!
Actually, I always feel the best about speaking the language if I can help a fellow traveler
who does not.
Even in big city, like Munich, we had to look for a younger person who could explain
a metro transfer in English. A few older people we approached did not speak English at all.
Why would they.
But, as Peg said, it is very satisfying when a native speaker compliments you on the language.
Happened to me in a store in Venice, although , perhaps, the owner just wanted to make a sale!
Actually, I always feel the best about speaking the language if I can help a fellow traveler
who does not.
Sep 25th, 2012, 07:13 AM
#78
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gertie-- "Line of least resistance". Yes, I find this is how conversations typically evolve. I live in Quebec and I've seen this dynamic played out in my relationships with every individual I know. I don't know why this is but eventually one language wins out over another with every French-speaking friend I have as the "communication language of choice" between me & them... and we never stray from this mode unless a third party comes into the picture (even though I speak French well and they may speak English perfectly adequately). Strange.
Peg, Danon-- I glowed with joy too when the salesperson complimented me on my Dutch "Ik zou nog een keer 'n fiets met handremmen willen verhuren, alsjeblieft" renting a bike with handbrakes. I've wondered too if foreign language compliments are in desire to make a sale, but then again I wonder too if I'm overly cynical in thinking so.
Peg, Danon-- I glowed with joy too when the salesperson complimented me on my Dutch "Ik zou nog een keer 'n fiets met handremmen willen verhuren, alsjeblieft" renting a bike with handbrakes. I've wondered too if foreign language compliments are in desire to make a sale, but then again I wonder too if I'm overly cynical in thinking so.
Sep 25th, 2012, 11:32 AM
#79
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Daniel: as a language teacher myself, I know that what is difficult in a new language is a feature not present in our own language. Thus in German gender, cases and word order. My Spanish-speaking students have a hard time with prepositions in English because there are fewer of them in Spanish and because there are no rules to learn them by.
Peg/Danon,LOL about smiling when complimented on language ability by local people. The only exception I know to this is Japanese where they routinely say 'Ojozu desu ne' as soon as you manage to say anything at all. And don't even mention using chopsticks!!
Peg/Danon,LOL about smiling when complimented on language ability by local people. The only exception I know to this is Japanese where they routinely say 'Ojozu desu ne' as soon as you manage to say anything at all. And don't even mention using chopsticks!!
Sep 26th, 2012, 01:06 PM
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Daniel: Whether I'm selling or not, I make a point to compliment foreign speakers of their English if I can understand what they are saying. Without fail their faces would light up when complimented. I think in the US we often take it for granted that foreign visitors can speak in English.
The last time I was in East Germany, a lost blond girl asked me if she's on the right train in chopped up German. After she told me that she just arrived from Poland by train, I complimented her German and her face immediately brightened up like I just made her day. It felt good to give someone a free gift.
The last time I was in East Germany, a lost blond girl asked me if she's on the right train in chopped up German. After she told me that she just arrived from Poland by train, I complimented her German and her face immediately brightened up like I just made her day. It felt good to give someone a free gift.
