Jim_Tardio

<i>"And the recipients of 99% of these fines are suburb residents who drive into the city although they shouldn't. Which the paper conveniently neglects to mention.

But no, it's all about tourists and their precious freedom to drive everywhere."</i>

Can you attribute this to an official source? Nowhere in the LA Examiner quote does it mention tourists.

Look...I'm of the personal belief that you should pay the fine and be done with it. But let's not pretend that these so called laws exist for any other reason than to generate revenue.

Most tourists are ignorant of the law, and that's no excuse...definitely not an excuse. It's an individual's responsibility to be aware of the traffic rules. But it's also not an excuse to prey on the tourist's ignorance.

The fine is excessive, especially when there are reports of multiple tickets being issued within a few minutes.

Heavy traffic zones in some French and Austrian cities require those allowed in the zone to pass through toll-like gates by inserting their gate pass. That keeps the tourists out, and the traffic down.

DickPatterson

Why can't they cut us a break? How do those of you up there on your high horse know that the sign wasn't obscured by a tree limb, or hadn't been defaced by vandals, etc.? Haven't any of you ever gotten lost? Haven't any of you ever taken the wrong exit? How do you know the driver wasn't forced to make an error in order to avoid some crazy Italian driver? The OP did not deliberately violate the law. Driving in Italy is tough; I breathe a sigh of relief every time I return a rental car in Italy. What purpose is served by following visitors home and demanding money for something they weren't even aware they did and that didn't hurt anybody? And it's no small amount, either, especially since almost everybody who gets one of these notices gets more than one. You come home from your trip with beautiful memories, and then several of these arrive in the mail a year later to spoil your memories. If there were traffic police there doing their job, they could stop you, tell you what you did wrong, and let you off with a warning. It would have the same deterrent effect, and you would feel that the Florentines were glad that you had visited them. The difference is that the Florentine coffers would not swell by 52 million Euro. So I think it's very understandable that one would feel that the Florentines were not glad that you had visited them and that they don't care whether you had a good trip, as long as they're able to get a few more dollars out of you.

kybourbon

It's not just Florence or Italy. There are traffic cameras all over Europe and restrictions in many cities. There are also traffic cameras in the US, but perhaps you live somewhere that doesn't have them. I don't think you are allowed to make up your own traffic laws/rules when you travel, even in the US. Not all tickets by cameras are for violating ZTL.

Texastrips

Do all of you who think tourists shouldn't have to pay traffic tickets in Italy think foreigners who get traffic tickets here shouldn't have to pay?

Christina, Tulips, Jean etc - right on...

Zerlina

The reporting by the LA Examiner is highly selective. *Complete* data about traffic fines in Florence are published in the Florence newspapers.

It is not 1% of all fines that are charged to tourists, but it *is* only 14%.

kybourbon

I'm sure they think all the traffic signs in the US need to be in Italian too.

2010

We are also one of those travellers who received a "surprise" in the mail, months after returning from our trip to Italy! There's no disputing that we contravened Italian laws. We paid the fine.

We do wonder about the car rental agency's responsibility to alert customers that its office is located within Florence's ZTL. There is no indication on the website map of limited access.

Had we known, we probably would have contacted the local office for directions. Now that we do know, we will likely choose the airport drop-off location!

Texastrips

2010 - good for you.

I'm not sure about the car rental agency's "responsibility" - generally in my experience in numerous countries, car rental places don't provide much useful information. I rented a car at BWI airport a couple of months ago and in the rain and already dark, the rental people were completely unable to provide instructions on how to get from the airport to the relevant road (I95!) to DC.... I don't think that's just an Italian shortcoming of car rental offices.

JustineA

I've already given my opinion here but just wanted to add that I live in a small town in the southern rocky mountains. Several of the backroads, close to my house, have been set up with those suv's equipped with cameras and computers-- at odd times; in other words you don't know when they will be there. Electronic traffic cops, so to speak. No one is actually in the car.

On one very steep road very close to my house the speed limit is 25 and it's almost impossible to go that slow there due to the hill. Apparently on December 10th I was speeding--30 mph in a 25 zone. 2 1/2 months later I received a ticket for $100. I've never received a speeding ticket in my life. I'm a little old lady kind of a driver. It's just another way for the county to bring in revenue and control the people.
It's happening everywhere not just Europe.

DickPatterson

Should tourists have to follow the same traffic rules as everybody else? Yes, of course, just as freshman should have to follow the same rules as upperclassmen. But sometimes, in all the excitement and having to cope with so many 'foreign' things, a freshman might find himself going up the down staircase. Should the freshman receive the same punishment as an upperclassman who willfully violates the rule? I guess if you're way up there on your high horse you'll say 'Yes.' There is such a thing as bending the rules, looking the other way, giving the benefit of the doubt, letting you off with a warning, sentencing a first offender to probation instead of jail, etc. I think Florence is sending the same message as Christina: I don't like tourists (I guess Christina somehow manages to be 'always a local, never a tourist.') They're saying they'd rather have your money now than have you come back for another visit.

I have yet to read a complaint from someone who knowingly violated the ZTL rules. Posters always start with 'I don't know what I did wrong.' They were trying to obey the rules, but they made a mistake. How do any of you know that the sign was clearly visible where the driver entered the ZTL? Are the Florentines so well organized that they check every sign every day?

I think that if we received a 20 Euro fine in the mail shortly after our visit and the notice described a reasonable appeal process, almost all of us would pay it and not harbor ill feelings against our Italian host. But these fines are exorbitant (after your credit card has already been charged 50 dollars for the 2 minutes the rental company took to query their system and provide your information to the police), they come so long after the event that it's difficult to remember details or gather evidence, the language is so threatening, etc., that you feel like they've followed you home and smacked you in the face.

BTW, if this is not just an Italy issue, can someone point me to some posts from travelers who had comparable experiences in other European countries (please restrict this to posts where the experience is truly comparable)?

poutine

2 tickets for speeding received from the Netherlands. Hertz charged our card 18 euro twice for giving the info to the traffic authorities.

Was also charged a similar amount from Hertz for a speeding ticket in Italy. I never received the ticket itself.

DickPatterson

Poutine, did you knowingly drive over the speed limit, how large was the fine, how long after the incident did you receive the ticket?

kybourbon

>>>But these fines are exorbitant (after your credit card has already been charged 50 dollars for the 2 minutes the rental company took to query their system and provide your information to the police<<<

The rental car company would do the same thing in the US so that part has nothing to do with Italy. Perhaps you should check before renting a car next time to see how much they will charge for providing your info and shop around for a cheaper fee.

>>>I think Florence is sending the same message as Christina: I don't like tourists<<<

Has nothing to do with tourists really. The camera will take a photo of anyone crossing the ZTL. It doesn't determine if you are a tourist or not before snapping a picture.

>>> Posters always start with 'I don't know what I did wrong.' They were trying to obey the rules, but they made a mistake.<<<

I don't think that's accurate. What really happens in most cases is they didn't even bother to learn the rules/signs of a foreign country before getting behind the wheel. They probably saw the sign(s), but didn't have a clue what it meant.

poutine

My husband did not deliberately get the tickets. He does have a heavy foot however....

In the Netherlands, the fines were:

1. 82 km/h in a 70 km/h zone. 40 euros

2. 92 km/h in a 80 km/h zone. 37 euros

The tickets were issued in Dutch, English and French, and were very clear.

I received the fines about 60-90 days after returning. I did pay them. However, I never received the speeding ticket from Italy, just the charge from Hertz for providing the authorities with my info.

Incidentally, the Hertz charges showed up on my card before any notification of any kind. I thought that Hertz had upcharged me for something. When initally picking up the cars, both Hertz locations had a lot of trouble getting the amount they wanted to charge me back down to the amount I had booked online (and had the paperwork with me as confirmation.) I had already called Amex to have two charges reversed by the time the first document arrived in the mail. The third Hertz charge was left on my bill.

Ann1

PAAALLLLEEZE people...Do you think Europeans don't get tickets here and have the same attitude? On the highways the police pick out of state licenses because they know the person won't fight the ticket. I worked at the state police. Do you think that if you blow a toll...not understanding that you need an EZ-pass to go under the bar over the highway that doesn't have a sign that they don't get tickets? If you do the crime you have to pay the fine and ignorance of the law doesn't cut it. You need to read up on traffic laws before you go and stay away from driving in the cities.

2010

I understand that hotels & garages can inform the Florence police that a guest will be driving within the ZTL. By providing the license plate number, the driver will be allowed to enter the limited access zone to drop off luggage at a hotel or park the car.

Does that mean it might be possible to ask the car rental agency to register a car that will be dropped off at its office/parking garage in advance? Or would the hotel to do this if requested?

Surely, I am not the only one trying to return a rental car to an office which is located within the ZTL and doing so, legally?!? (No more 'surprises' in the mail, please!) I'm looking for an alternative to either going blind trying to decipher which roads are passable on the on-line map or dropping the car off at the airport & taking a cab to the hotel.

SonomaPinot

I'm in the middle on this one. I believe everyone everywhere should pay the fine if they've broken the law. But there are two issues for me.

First, these fines seem exorbitant.

Second, the safety issue. Having driven in Italy before, I have to say it is much more challenging than most places. Especially as a tourist, the chaos is hard to deal with: the trucks coming within inches of you, the crazy taxis (sometimes driving on the sidewalks to pass!), pedestrians darting across your path, the mopeds zipping between it all.

Even though we had studied the road signs beforehand, it's a whole different animal when in the thick of it. To slow down enough to fully comprehend every street sign would be presenting yourself as a target for the next accident. We couldn't afford to risk our safety or the safety of others in a system where one little glitch puts us all in the soup. The locals would hate the tourists all the more if we drove slow enough to understand every sign out there. And it would just be too unsafe.

Many tourists only visit a place once. Try to remember your first time driving in a chaotic foreign city, no matter where, with signs in a language you don't understand, and have just a little bit of understanding why it is such a challenge for a tourist. That's all I'm saying.

laartista

Basically with Florence anywhere near centro is restricted. You can park on the opposite side of SMN station ( back side) but anytime you cross in either thru Piazza Liberta, Piazza Indepencia, Porto Romano ( not sure) , Piazza Baccheria, it's restricted. For example Via Cavour off limits! You can park in Piazza Liberta, there is a big lot there and some garages near the train station but really anywhere in centro is restricted and the Italians get hit with tickets too, except most in Florence know where not to go or have permits. I know this because whenever I met Laura and she was driving I'd walk to Piazza Liberta to meet her so as not to get a ticket. All that said there are certain times of the day maybe btwn 2am- 5 am or some crazy hours that it is ok and not restricted.

altamiro

While quite many posts are just whining about how tourists should be treated better than locals, there are some good point. While I don't think it is the duty of rental agency to provide detailed information about driving conditions, it is at least a questionable business sense to place the rental agency inside a ZTL.

kerouac

I received 2 charges from Dollar Rent-a-Car in Miami for not paying 2 25-cent bridge tolls. The fine was something like $15 plus $25 handling charge per item, total $80. Luckily, it was not too hard for me to point out that I had rented that car at 4pm, and the violations had occurred before noon.

Meanwhile, I would like to point out that those of you who think that tourists should be let off the hook that there are a lot of fake tourists out there. Years after I had settled in Paris, I still pulled out my American passport from time to time and used an improvized horrendous accent to get out of some predicaments. That sort of thing doesn't work anymore.