Is covered shoulders/knees required for all churches in Italy?
Apr 15th, 2008, 07:15 AM
#101
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Or you can do like Italians do and wear say shorts into churches that don't seem to mind or they would have signs at entrances like those that do
I have yet to see and have asked for a written rule that applies to all Italian churches about this
I think it must be up to individual churches
so i follow whatever rules they make know
Do as the Italians do IMO - they know best
I have yet to see and have asked for a written rule that applies to all Italian churches about this
I think it must be up to individual churches
so i follow whatever rules they make know
Do as the Italians do IMO - they know best
Apr 15th, 2008, 09:20 AM
#103
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For following the rules as i know them?
Padraig once again what are the written rules for satorial behavior in Italian churches
if there is one i will follow it for sure as i always do if i know and will always be in good dress and decorum
and if it's OK with that church to wear shorts in then why not?
I fail to see why this is so trolling and see you criticism as as offensive to me as i am to you
that said i will say no more as saying what you think is apparently trolling. Dare i to dispute the authority Padraig!
It seems trolling is when someone disagrees with you.
Padraig once again what are the written rules for satorial behavior in Italian churches
if there is one i will follow it for sure as i always do if i know and will always be in good dress and decorum
and if it's OK with that church to wear shorts in then why not?
I fail to see why this is so trolling and see you criticism as as offensive to me as i am to you
that said i will say no more as saying what you think is apparently trolling. Dare i to dispute the authority Padraig!
It seems trolling is when someone disagrees with you.
Apr 16th, 2008, 03:40 AM
#105
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Come, come, PalenQ.
A travel forum is hardly an appropriate place to air your laundry list of complaints about the Christian Church. But then, you seem to have a terrible time in this thread with discerning what is appropriate. If you genuinely desire to be disabused of your many misconceptions regarding the Church on subjects like infallibility, sexism, and papacy, to name a few, may I suggest a visit with a religious person or a trip to a bookstore for a book on Christian apologetics. Being a packmule, I can imagine how debilitating that baggage of enmity you carry and I hope you will lighten the load.
But lest I should be accused of wrighting-off this episode (that is, sitting here for years, not daring to repudiate the rants and thereby giving them credibility), I will say my piece and move on.
> i am saying that street clothes, much like the legendary Jesus is said to have worn, should be find for the church as well - no head coverings, no shorts need be banned
Point 1) Pause for a moment there, PalenQ, and reflect on what Jesus actually wore during that time. Jesus did wear a head covering and shorts were unheard-of back then. But no one’s advocating that we wear tunics and leather sandals just because Jesus wore them.
We all understand that clothing standards evolve.
The garments women wore in 3 AD were conventional but people nowadays would think they vaguely resemble burkhas. Trousers for women were forbidden before but today are acceptable most places, even on the campaign trails. Veils were mandatory before Vatican II, then they practically disappeared; now, they are becoming fashionable again among conservative Catholics attending the Tridentine mass.
The norms of what is/isn’t acceptable change with the times but I contend that the “principles” that determine acceptability remain constant.
Point 2) Street clothes are acceptable as church clothes provided that they fulfill these three principles: hygiene, decorum and modesty. I am giving you here some guidelines as determined by the Magisterium of the Church.
On Hygiene – Obviously, clothes that are filthy, blood-stained or malodorous would be inappropriate to wear in church. And for the inquiring minds: what about Jesus’ clothes? He certainly mingled with the poor, but I assure you he wasn’t wearing beggars’ clothes. Remember: the guards were casting lots for his garments not because these were a souvenir but because they were a “keeper” that the guards themselves could use.
On Decorum – Here I’m reminded of annhig’s early post
> what bemuses me, though, is why any reasonable deity would be so offended by knees and shoulders. Given we are made in his/her image. or perhaps not.
Precisely, annhig! It IS because Christians believe that we are made in His image and imbued with His spirit that it is offensive that we reduce ourselves to showcasing a mere body part like a chest, belly, thigh and shoulder. Each man and woman deserves respect as a WHOLE person, not simply as a flesh, a tattoo, or a model for the designer du jour. One’s clothing should duly reflect the dignity ascribed to a divine masterpiece.
On M-O-D-E-S-T-Y – There! If you’re looking for the “universal rule for church attire,” I’ve just spelt it out. Too often, we behave like that lawyer in the Bible who asked “Who’s my neighbor?” and expected a checklist of BFFs. Well, I surely don’t speak in parables and no church or parish or diocese can give you a comprehensive and itemized catalogue of appropriate churchwear. But if you follow the rule of modesty, you will be a welcome visitor in any house of worship. So far, in my course of work, I haven’t been to one that told me to strip off my clothes before walking in.
But people confuse modesty with other things.
Modesty isn’t frumpiness -- although many people dress so. Neither is modesty a holier-than-thou attitude – no matter what you may think of the fashion-police checking the necklines.
More importantly, modesty isn’t to be confused with customs and conventions. As I’ve said earlier, customs evolve; what is acceptable now may not be tomorrow. But modesty is and always will be a virtue. So, if for some reason, transparent skirts were to be considered the conventional street wear, they would remain inappropriate for church because they are immodest.
What is immodest attire, then?
In general, especially when talking to a younger set, I say parts of the body which have private functions should have no business being displayed in public and clothes should cover those body parts. When talking to an older group, I say clothes that diminish one’s person to an object of sexual titillation (yes, that’s a mouthful.) are immodest. Most of the time, surprisingly, teenagers get it. They can appreciate modesty as a virtue that highlights how valuable they are as persons and also governs how they should treat one another.
> Again Jesus dressed in no such baffoonish atire like Panzer Pope does - i think the leader of the church should be dressed more like a carpenter and not some clown.
LOL! How difficult was it for you, PalenQ, to limit the ad hominem to just three in one sentence?
My son is an altar server and when he puts on his soutane and surplice, it strikes me that this approach to vestments is singularly Catholic. For us, vestments are “sacramentals” meaning they are used to aid the faithful think of holy things. They convey a message. The pope’s garments, from the chasuble to the pallium, have a wealth of religious significance. (A prayer is even said as he dons each piece.) It is foolish and arrogant to dismiss the messenger as a joke when one didn’t understand the message to begin with.
Point 3) Lastly, why all this fuss about church clothes?
For a nonbeliever, I hope it was done as a thoughtful gesture to accord civility and respect to a fellow human being. And I thank him. For a Christian, however, if he truly believes and fully comprehends that he is about to encounter in a church the Lord God, our Father, the great I AM, then why would he NOT prepare himself -- in heart and body?
Now I’m off to get ready for the papal visit....
p.
A travel forum is hardly an appropriate place to air your laundry list of complaints about the Christian Church. But then, you seem to have a terrible time in this thread with discerning what is appropriate. If you genuinely desire to be disabused of your many misconceptions regarding the Church on subjects like infallibility, sexism, and papacy, to name a few, may I suggest a visit with a religious person or a trip to a bookstore for a book on Christian apologetics. Being a packmule, I can imagine how debilitating that baggage of enmity you carry and I hope you will lighten the load.
But lest I should be accused of wrighting-off this episode (that is, sitting here for years, not daring to repudiate the rants and thereby giving them credibility), I will say my piece and move on.
> i am saying that street clothes, much like the legendary Jesus is said to have worn, should be find for the church as well - no head coverings, no shorts need be banned
Point 1) Pause for a moment there, PalenQ, and reflect on what Jesus actually wore during that time. Jesus did wear a head covering and shorts were unheard-of back then. But no one’s advocating that we wear tunics and leather sandals just because Jesus wore them.
We all understand that clothing standards evolve.
The garments women wore in 3 AD were conventional but people nowadays would think they vaguely resemble burkhas. Trousers for women were forbidden before but today are acceptable most places, even on the campaign trails. Veils were mandatory before Vatican II, then they practically disappeared; now, they are becoming fashionable again among conservative Catholics attending the Tridentine mass.
The norms of what is/isn’t acceptable change with the times but I contend that the “principles” that determine acceptability remain constant.
Point 2) Street clothes are acceptable as church clothes provided that they fulfill these three principles: hygiene, decorum and modesty. I am giving you here some guidelines as determined by the Magisterium of the Church.
On Hygiene – Obviously, clothes that are filthy, blood-stained or malodorous would be inappropriate to wear in church. And for the inquiring minds: what about Jesus’ clothes? He certainly mingled with the poor, but I assure you he wasn’t wearing beggars’ clothes. Remember: the guards were casting lots for his garments not because these were a souvenir but because they were a “keeper” that the guards themselves could use.
On Decorum – Here I’m reminded of annhig’s early post
> what bemuses me, though, is why any reasonable deity would be so offended by knees and shoulders. Given we are made in his/her image. or perhaps not.
Precisely, annhig! It IS because Christians believe that we are made in His image and imbued with His spirit that it is offensive that we reduce ourselves to showcasing a mere body part like a chest, belly, thigh and shoulder. Each man and woman deserves respect as a WHOLE person, not simply as a flesh, a tattoo, or a model for the designer du jour. One’s clothing should duly reflect the dignity ascribed to a divine masterpiece.
On M-O-D-E-S-T-Y – There! If you’re looking for the “universal rule for church attire,” I’ve just spelt it out. Too often, we behave like that lawyer in the Bible who asked “Who’s my neighbor?” and expected a checklist of BFFs. Well, I surely don’t speak in parables and no church or parish or diocese can give you a comprehensive and itemized catalogue of appropriate churchwear. But if you follow the rule of modesty, you will be a welcome visitor in any house of worship. So far, in my course of work, I haven’t been to one that told me to strip off my clothes before walking in.
But people confuse modesty with other things.
Modesty isn’t frumpiness -- although many people dress so. Neither is modesty a holier-than-thou attitude – no matter what you may think of the fashion-police checking the necklines.
More importantly, modesty isn’t to be confused with customs and conventions. As I’ve said earlier, customs evolve; what is acceptable now may not be tomorrow. But modesty is and always will be a virtue. So, if for some reason, transparent skirts were to be considered the conventional street wear, they would remain inappropriate for church because they are immodest.
What is immodest attire, then?
In general, especially when talking to a younger set, I say parts of the body which have private functions should have no business being displayed in public and clothes should cover those body parts. When talking to an older group, I say clothes that diminish one’s person to an object of sexual titillation (yes, that’s a mouthful.) are immodest. Most of the time, surprisingly, teenagers get it. They can appreciate modesty as a virtue that highlights how valuable they are as persons and also governs how they should treat one another.
> Again Jesus dressed in no such baffoonish atire like Panzer Pope does - i think the leader of the church should be dressed more like a carpenter and not some clown.
LOL! How difficult was it for you, PalenQ, to limit the ad hominem to just three in one sentence?
My son is an altar server and when he puts on his soutane and surplice, it strikes me that this approach to vestments is singularly Catholic. For us, vestments are “sacramentals” meaning they are used to aid the faithful think of holy things. They convey a message. The pope’s garments, from the chasuble to the pallium, have a wealth of religious significance. (A prayer is even said as he dons each piece.) It is foolish and arrogant to dismiss the messenger as a joke when one didn’t understand the message to begin with.
Point 3) Lastly, why all this fuss about church clothes?
For a nonbeliever, I hope it was done as a thoughtful gesture to accord civility and respect to a fellow human being. And I thank him. For a Christian, however, if he truly believes and fully comprehends that he is about to encounter in a church the Lord God, our Father, the great I AM, then why would he NOT prepare himself -- in heart and body?
Now I’m off to get ready for the papal visit....
p.
Apr 16th, 2008, 03:58 AM
#106
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Well i thought this was the Lounge Forum and not a Travel Forum - sorry for my mistake - this one is in the Europe forum rightly so and i only said here that i do what the Italians do - a very valid point
the other transgressions you apply to me about voicing my philosophies have been in the Lounge - a most appropriate topic there.
Paddy - there are a lot more uglier septics then me.
You lecture to me about basically i saying that if i see Italians going into churches in shorts that i should stay out in my shorts?
That's my point and that all churches don't seem to mind
You have some idea of some coda covering this which i have asked you repeatedly to cite and have not
Ugly American and Ugly Irishmen too IMO
Again what is my transgression in this thread (and this thread not Forum topics which are obviously prejuidicing you and clouding your thoughts here.
the other transgressions you apply to me about voicing my philosophies have been in the Lounge - a most appropriate topic there.
Paddy - there are a lot more uglier septics then me.
You lecture to me about basically i saying that if i see Italians going into churches in shorts that i should stay out in my shorts?
That's my point and that all churches don't seem to mind
You have some idea of some coda covering this which i have asked you repeatedly to cite and have not
Ugly American and Ugly Irishmen too IMO
Again what is my transgression in this thread (and this thread not Forum topics which are obviously prejuidicing you and clouding your thoughts here.
Apr 16th, 2008, 04:21 AM
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<If you genuinely desire to be disabused of your many misconceptions regarding the Church on subjects like infallibility, sexism, and papacy, to name a few, may I suggest a visit with a religious person or a trip to a bookstore for a book on Christian apologetics.>
Well since YOU have turned this thread into a debate about your and my theological views regarding THE, yes THE Church OK - THE says a lot by the way
Even if i lead a very Christian life, accept Jesus as my savior, etc if i don't regard Pope as infallible Pope recently said i could only go to limbo or some such place and not true Heaven
I think that's all i need say about THE chruch to point out that lunacy.
I have no desired to be disabused of my thoughts - again expressed in the Lounge where any topic is fair game.
Yet the religious types like Padraig always take every little non-conforming thought to be a personal attack - i sincerely respect someone's faith but i can express my lack of too - but it's always the really faithful who then say i'm attacking them. figure that out
Packmule - i am impressed by your post and it seems to take a common sense approach melded with your sincere beliefs
Yet i object to using the word 'rants' with my takes - again if you say what you feel it's a rant.
Yes personally i think this religion that is a huge brainwashing job and hoax that has incredibly persisted for centuries - this is not to say folks like you are not 'smart' and i am 'smarter' - no i am not the sharpest knife in the drawer i admit. I expect people will at some time evolve to see thru this fog - call that a rant yes i know you will. So i guess i must keep my mouth shut.
There are two points of view and i don't see why fervent believers are so threatened by them being expressed (again normally in the Lounge and not there but this was a travel question and i think my take is the practical one
When in Italy do as the Italians would.
In this thread my point was street clothes - not soiled, bloody, etc. are fine in churches if Italians are doing the same or if apparently the individual church does not object and they would have a sign at the door like many do i would think.
Well since YOU have turned this thread into a debate about your and my theological views regarding THE, yes THE Church OK - THE says a lot by the way
Even if i lead a very Christian life, accept Jesus as my savior, etc if i don't regard Pope as infallible Pope recently said i could only go to limbo or some such place and not true Heaven
I think that's all i need say about THE chruch to point out that lunacy.
I have no desired to be disabused of my thoughts - again expressed in the Lounge where any topic is fair game.
Yet the religious types like Padraig always take every little non-conforming thought to be a personal attack - i sincerely respect someone's faith but i can express my lack of too - but it's always the really faithful who then say i'm attacking them. figure that out
Packmule - i am impressed by your post and it seems to take a common sense approach melded with your sincere beliefs
Yet i object to using the word 'rants' with my takes - again if you say what you feel it's a rant.
Yes personally i think this religion that is a huge brainwashing job and hoax that has incredibly persisted for centuries - this is not to say folks like you are not 'smart' and i am 'smarter' - no i am not the sharpest knife in the drawer i admit. I expect people will at some time evolve to see thru this fog - call that a rant yes i know you will. So i guess i must keep my mouth shut.
There are two points of view and i don't see why fervent believers are so threatened by them being expressed (again normally in the Lounge and not there but this was a travel question and i think my take is the practical one
When in Italy do as the Italians would.
In this thread my point was street clothes - not soiled, bloody, etc. are fine in churches if Italians are doing the same or if apparently the individual church does not object and they would have a sign at the door like many do i would think.
Apr 16th, 2008, 04:54 AM
#108
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Hi Lammom, What my daughter and I usually do when on vacation, is carry a large sarong type scarf in our purse/backpack, and throw it on if we come upon a church we'd like to enter. Somtimes we would be out for a walk, to visit somewhere other than a church, on a hot day, and happen on a beautiful church that we hadn't planned to visit. This worked for us. Not that we are ones to wear short shorts--usually it's just above the knee! Have fun on your trip! pp
Apr 16th, 2008, 05:04 AM
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PalenQ wrote: "...the religious types like Padraig..."
You know nothing about my position on religion because I do not discuss it here. I have already pointed that out to you.
It is clear that you don't give a rat's arse for truth and fairness.
You know nothing about my position on religion because I do not discuss it here. I have already pointed that out to you.
It is clear that you don't give a rat's arse for truth and fairness.
Apr 16th, 2008, 05:04 AM
#110
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Who said there was no common rule?!
Shorts are okay, unless made from blended fabric. Deuteronomy 22:11
So, there is an easy solution for this problem: Get 100% cotton shorts and show the tag to the old lady guarding the church door.
That's why Italians may proceed in (cotton or linen) shorts, and Americans with their known preference for polyesters must remain outside.
Shorts are okay, unless made from blended fabric. Deuteronomy 22:11
So, there is an easy solution for this problem: Get 100% cotton shorts and show the tag to the old lady guarding the church door.
That's why Italians may proceed in (cotton or linen) shorts, and Americans with their known preference for polyesters must remain outside.
Apr 16th, 2008, 05:20 AM
#111
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Ooh, look.
There's a great big hole over there and I can see the occasional spadeful of soil flying up.
If you look carefully, you can see a busy little person busily digging.
I have been visiting Italy for years and I can't actually remember seeing an Italian in shorts in church or elsewhere.
Can it be that they reserve them for the beach or tennis court?
There's a great big hole over there and I can see the occasional spadeful of soil flying up.
If you look carefully, you can see a busy little person busily digging.
I have been visiting Italy for years and I can't actually remember seeing an Italian in shorts in church or elsewhere.
Can it be that they reserve them for the beach or tennis court?
Apr 16th, 2008, 06:32 AM
#112
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Yds italians on holiday certainly do wear shorts as i've seen
In any case - Padraig you have my apology for offending you
and anyone i may have offended
and will no longer express any sentiments about religion here anymore - and anywhere else - that is my sincere hope - i really mean not to offend and it always ends up that way. And i mean not to offend folks i respect like Padraig and Josser - back to talking about trains, something that will offend few i hope.
You win.
In any case - Padraig you have my apology for offending you
and anyone i may have offended
and will no longer express any sentiments about religion here anymore - and anywhere else - that is my sincere hope - i really mean not to offend and it always ends up that way. And i mean not to offend folks i respect like Padraig and Josser - back to talking about trains, something that will offend few i hope.
You win.
