Oh no, not another grammar lesson! Learning italian in Venice - a TR.
Feb 17th, 2015, 05:25 PM
#43
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ANNHIG, still following along and enjoying the details of how the classes were conducted and learning about the opportunities you had to practice your Italian while taking geography and cooking lessons. Doing it all, eh?
Feb 18th, 2015, 03:49 AM
#45
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Since you're studying grammar, Ann, I feel obliged to tell you that the bar "Ai Artisti" should be called "Agli Artisti"; its name is not grammatically correct. I don't know if "Ai Artisti" is a local Venezian construction or if it was named by a foreigner. I googled it and see that the bar really is called "Ai artisti" (which, among other things, is difficult to pronounce), although there's also a hotel in Venice called "Agli artisti", so maybe it's not a local aberration.
The particular rule is that masculine plural nouns beginning with a vowel, or with "z", or with "s" followed by a consonant, take the article "gli" instead of "i". This is supposed to make it easier to pronounce, although "gl" is probably one of the most difficult sounds for a foreigner to replicate. My first Italian teacher told us to pronounce it like the "ll" in "million". However, try making that sound at the beginning of a sentence!
The particular rule is that masculine plural nouns beginning with a vowel, or with "z", or with "s" followed by a consonant, take the article "gli" instead of "i". This is supposed to make it easier to pronounce, although "gl" is probably one of the most difficult sounds for a foreigner to replicate. My first Italian teacher told us to pronounce it like the "ll" in "million". However, try making that sound at the beginning of a sentence!
Feb 18th, 2015, 04:23 AM
#46
bvl - the bar is definitely called the Ai Artisti - I kept the receipt so I would remember the name.
of course you're right about the correct italian use of the definite article "gli" before masculine plural nouns beginning with vowels, Z, St, etc., but I'm not responsible for how some venetians choose to spell things! [and there are quite a few local variations, both on maps and on street names]. Perhaps the bar owner thought it looked good.
glad you're all enjoying the trip. If just one of you takes the plunge, I'll be happy. Ideally you should spend at least a fortnight at a language school - as ever I was only just getting into it when it was time to go home, but if you've got misgivings about committing to that, IME even a week is well worthwhile.
Lateday - I didn't actually take the cookery course, though I was tempted. Had I been by myself, I think that I would have gone for it but it didn't really fit with our group plans. Another time perhaps.
of course you're right about the correct italian use of the definite article "gli" before masculine plural nouns beginning with vowels, Z, St, etc., but I'm not responsible for how some venetians choose to spell things! [and there are quite a few local variations, both on maps and on street names]. Perhaps the bar owner thought it looked good.
glad you're all enjoying the trip. If just one of you takes the plunge, I'll be happy. Ideally you should spend at least a fortnight at a language school - as ever I was only just getting into it when it was time to go home, but if you've got misgivings about committing to that, IME even a week is well worthwhile.
Lateday - I didn't actually take the cookery course, though I was tempted. Had I been by myself, I think that I would have gone for it but it didn't really fit with our group plans. Another time perhaps.
Feb 18th, 2015, 04:54 AM
#47
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Enjoying and following along vicariously. I speak libretto Italian -- I can readily say, in pretty good Italian, "On beautiful day we'll see a wisp of smoke rise from the far end of the sea, and then the ship will appear...", along with dozens of other equally useful speeches and snippets. But I know almost no grammar, and it isn't that often that a conversation comes up where it's useful to know how to say "You know, Mother, Turiddu loved Lola before he became a soldier."
For me, it would be tough to avoid the temptation of cutting class.
For me, it would be tough to avoid the temptation of cutting class.
Feb 18th, 2015, 05:23 AM
#48
well, I'm glad that you are enjoying the thread, despite your views about taking lessons, DonTopaz. I did think that the classes were bit heavy on grammar rather than conversation, though that is not to say that there wasn't plenty of talking going on. In fact we had a discussion exactly along those lines, when one of our number in particular was expressing doubts about the need to learn, for example, the "congiunctivo imperfetto". Of course one can get by without being able to use those sorts of verb forms, but as the teacher said, if you want to be able to express yourself precisely and with the nuances you wish to convey, then it's essential to have a grasp of the grammar of involved.
to take your example, Don, you might want to say for example "you know, I was happy before I became a teacher" - in which case the grammar behind that sentence might be useful and a knowledge of grammar would enable you to turn the speeches and snippets that you are familiar with into a useable language.
But we all want different things from holidays, and I recognise that what I want is not necessarily the same as someone else.
If you took them, there were plenty of other opportunities for practising conversation skills - at home with out hosts, in shops, in bars and restaurants, with other students, in the extra-curricular activities, etc. etc.
to take your example, Don, you might want to say for example "you know, I was happy before I became a teacher" - in which case the grammar behind that sentence might be useful and a knowledge of grammar would enable you to turn the speeches and snippets that you are familiar with into a useable language.
But we all want different things from holidays, and I recognise that what I want is not necessarily the same as someone else.
If you took them, there were plenty of other opportunities for practising conversation skills - at home with out hosts, in shops, in bars and restaurants, with other students, in the extra-curricular activities, etc. etc.
Feb 18th, 2015, 06:52 AM
#49
Actually, I have thought of a better example of why a knowledge of grammar is helpful, taking a real situation we had in class last week, when one of our number, G, was absent, it was believed because she had gone to see her family off at the station, and we used this as an opportunity to look at the number of ways that this idea could be expressed: [yes, there's no end to the fun that you can have in your average Italian class!]
G has gone to the station.
G would have gone to the station .
I think that G may have gone to the station.
I think that G has gone to the station.
I thought that G went to the station
I thought that G had gone to the station.
[you can probably think of some more variations on this theme].
Each phrase has a different nuance in english so naturally, if you want to be able to express that nuance in Italian, you have to learn how to do it. That is not to say that all Italians would speak correctly [just as many english speakers don't] but the point is that if you want to be able to express yourself precisely, there are few short-cuts.
End of lecture.
Anyone for another grammar lesson?
G has gone to the station.
G would have gone to the station .
I think that G may have gone to the station.
I think that G has gone to the station.
I thought that G went to the station
I thought that G had gone to the station.
[you can probably think of some more variations on this theme].
Each phrase has a different nuance in english so naturally, if you want to be able to express that nuance in Italian, you have to learn how to do it. That is not to say that all Italians would speak correctly [just as many english speakers don't] but the point is that if you want to be able to express yourself precisely, there are few short-cuts.
End of lecture.
Anyone for another grammar lesson?
Feb 18th, 2015, 07:18 AM
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Oh goodie! Glad to have found your TR, annhig. Add me to the list of those who envy you taking Italian in Italy. I was so tempted by the college in Umbria. The Italian articles left me breathless so I think knowing the rules is a good thing. I’ve had 5 years of French but was hopeless in Paris until I met a Descartian mathematician and I could say <i>“Je pense, donc je suis”</i> that we learned in French literature and history! Forget ordering dinner....
More please, soon! <i>Più prego, presto</i> [according to google].
More please, soon! <i>Più prego, presto</i> [according to google].
Feb 18th, 2015, 07:42 AM
#52
TD - I think you just proved why you need lessons rather than google! Più presto, per favore, may be what you wanted to express. [quicker, please].
nice to have you along, and thanks for the nerdy encouragement, LCB.
nice to have you along, and thanks for the nerdy encouragement, LCB.
Feb 18th, 2015, 08:40 AM
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Signing on. I'm enjoying this trip report immensely. I'm not a grammar nerd in any way (except perhaps for spelling) but I dream of taking Italian classes in Italy, as opposed to the poor ones I've taken here, so this is very interesting. Thanks for giving me a glimpse of what I might expect if I ever get the opportunity.
PS-we just finished our version of Carnival (Mardi Gras) here in New Orleans and I would love to experience the Venetian version one day. It's my favorite holiday (and I don't even costume)!
PS-we just finished our version of Carnival (Mardi Gras) here in New Orleans and I would love to experience the Venetian version one day. It's my favorite holiday (and I don't even costume)!
Feb 18th, 2015, 12:15 PM
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Just to add to the grammar nerdiness, I have just spent a morning teaching modal verbs (in English) :
G might/may have gone to the station
G could have gone to the station
G should/ought to have gone to the station but....
G would have gone to the station if....
And this is just the past tense. Don't even start me on the present/continuous/negative.
And as for doing it all in Italian...
G might/may have gone to the station
G could have gone to the station
G should/ought to have gone to the station but....
G would have gone to the station if....
And this is just the past tense. Don't even start me on the present/continuous/negative.
And as for doing it all in Italian...
Feb 18th, 2015, 12:19 PM
#56
nola - I've never experienced Mardi Gras, but the visitors to Venice who were dressed up for Carnival seemed to be having a good time and they were very happy to pose for photos. A couple that quite a few of us saw were pushing an old fashioned pram; when you looked closely, you could see that it's passenger was not a baby but a small dog, all dressed up!
bvl - I never thought that you were. i think i've got used to the "funny" way that venetians spell and never think about it .
bvl - I never thought that you were. i think i've got used to the "funny" way that venetians spell and never think about it .
Feb 18th, 2015, 01:58 PM
#58
Day 3 - what is that monstrosity doing here?
Some of you have expressed an interest in whether I managed to meet up with Caroline and Philip - as you will see later on today, the answer, happily, was yes. Caroline and I had been corresponding by e-mail for a week or two before the trip, and by text once I arrived, setting up when we could meet, which turned out only to be this evening for dinner, as she is very busy teaching.
In the meantime there were the usual lessons to attend; I’ve looked in my notebook, and today we were looking at the correct use of the imperfect and perfect tenses, and our old friend, the congiunctivo. I’m not going to bore you with a blow by blow account but it was really more fun that it sounds written down and there was plenty of opportunity to converse, either as a whole class or in small groups of 2 or 3.
The afternoon’s activity was decorating masks which did not appeal to me, having not a creative bone in my body. I therefore decided to take myself off to one of my favourite places - the Basilica of the Frari - and generally to have a wander around, getting to know the areas around the school and my apartment a little better. First though it was time for lunch, and I found a sunny table outside another bar in the Campo Santa Margherita, the Caffe Rosso and along with a small glass [or was it two?] of white wine, I had a couple of crostini topped with baccalà and a tramezzino; I shared my table with a french student from one of the other classes who had been at the photography class the day before. Like several others at the school she spoke spanish very well and was struggling with trying to keep the two languages separate - not a problem that I have, knowing little or no spanish. But we had a nice chat and then she went off to make masks and I started to walk to the Frari.
On the way I wandered into the wonderfully named church of St Pantalon - there is little of interest to see there save a huge painting on the ceiling by Fumiani, depicting the martyrdom of the eponymous saint: http://www.sanpantalon.it/joomla/ind...d=9&Itemid=144 It was most impressive and claims to be the largest single painting in the world, though I’ not sure how they know that. [a 50c coin is required to illuminate it, which is well worth doing].
Carrying on towards the Frari, I came across a very nice coffee shop where I stopped for my first fritella of the day and a coffee. Never having been to Venice at this time of year before, I had never come across these confections before. Rather like a light doughnut, they come in 3 types - the venetian, which has dried fruit in it, the “crema” which has a filling of patissier’s cream, and the third and to my mind best type which is filled with zabaglione. Very morish - but at 450 calories each, they are a definite occasional treat!
Finally I arrived at the door of the Frari, and having paid my €3, went in. Why was I so keen to visit it? Was it to see the divine work of Titan? The sculptor Canova’s monument? The wonderful carving of the Rood Screen? Well, I have a confession to make - it was none of the above. It is one of the other works there that has peculiar fascination for me - the tomb of the Doge Pesaro. Placed next to the Canova monument, it is truly hideous and vile. There are evil looking negroid figures acting as supporting pillars [these were different times] emaciated skeletons emerging from the walls, and in the middle, a tiny sculpture of the Doge himself. What he had done to deserve such a monument is not clear - he only reigned for a year in the 1600s.
Having of course renewed my acquaintance with the other works in the church, including the beautiful Titan altarpiece, I left the church, and thought for a little while that might go to look at the works of Tintoretto in the Scuola di San Rocco as well, but I had seen them a couple of times before, and to be honest, I didn’t want to spend €10 on seeing them again. Then my attention was captured by a far more unique sight - a female gondolier; I had read about her but forgotten her existence until i saw her unloading some passengers who looked quite happy about their experience. Is that the last bastion to be breached by the monstrous regiment?
I had not intended to do any shopping but I had noticed in the little square by the Scuola a little shop of traditional appearance and in the window I spotted a very nice scarf that I thought DH might like. Then another customer, a french lady, was looking at aprons and there was a fun one with a map of Italy and some recipes printed on it which would be perfect for DS. Even better the assistant indulged my desire to speak italian, and whilst he swapped between italian, french and some english, we were able to enjoy a nice chat.
Then clutching my purchases, I tore myself away, and made my way as best I could to the San Tomà vaporetto stop, which was really quite difficult to find, but I got there in the end. My stop was the next one, so once the vaporetto arrived I was there in no time and instead of going back to the apartment [and my homework] I decided to go for a walk around my area and to try to buy some milk, so I could have a cup of tea without having to use my hostess’s and water. Straight away I was plunged into a labyrinth of canals and calle - I particularly liked the one which was called “calle dei avoccati” [yes, they got it wrong again, bvl!] As well as the usual bars and restaurants there were some especially lovely glass shops in this area; I really coveted some water glasses that I took a photo of, but at €106 each, I could not afford even one of them. Just as well as I couldn’t have carried them in my luggage.
Eventually I found a shop with some water, and they told me that I could buy some milk in a shop in a street off the next campo, and amazingly, they were right! So loaded down a bit by now, I navigated my way back to the apartment and lugged it all up those dratted steps. I had lots of time before I was due to meet Caroline and Philip, and I was gasping for a cup of tea so you will have to read about our GTG in the next episode.
Some of you have expressed an interest in whether I managed to meet up with Caroline and Philip - as you will see later on today, the answer, happily, was yes. Caroline and I had been corresponding by e-mail for a week or two before the trip, and by text once I arrived, setting up when we could meet, which turned out only to be this evening for dinner, as she is very busy teaching.
In the meantime there were the usual lessons to attend; I’ve looked in my notebook, and today we were looking at the correct use of the imperfect and perfect tenses, and our old friend, the congiunctivo. I’m not going to bore you with a blow by blow account but it was really more fun that it sounds written down and there was plenty of opportunity to converse, either as a whole class or in small groups of 2 or 3.
The afternoon’s activity was decorating masks which did not appeal to me, having not a creative bone in my body. I therefore decided to take myself off to one of my favourite places - the Basilica of the Frari - and generally to have a wander around, getting to know the areas around the school and my apartment a little better. First though it was time for lunch, and I found a sunny table outside another bar in the Campo Santa Margherita, the Caffe Rosso and along with a small glass [or was it two?] of white wine, I had a couple of crostini topped with baccalà and a tramezzino; I shared my table with a french student from one of the other classes who had been at the photography class the day before. Like several others at the school she spoke spanish very well and was struggling with trying to keep the two languages separate - not a problem that I have, knowing little or no spanish. But we had a nice chat and then she went off to make masks and I started to walk to the Frari.
On the way I wandered into the wonderfully named church of St Pantalon - there is little of interest to see there save a huge painting on the ceiling by Fumiani, depicting the martyrdom of the eponymous saint: http://www.sanpantalon.it/joomla/ind...d=9&Itemid=144 It was most impressive and claims to be the largest single painting in the world, though I’ not sure how they know that. [a 50c coin is required to illuminate it, which is well worth doing].
Carrying on towards the Frari, I came across a very nice coffee shop where I stopped for my first fritella of the day and a coffee. Never having been to Venice at this time of year before, I had never come across these confections before. Rather like a light doughnut, they come in 3 types - the venetian, which has dried fruit in it, the “crema” which has a filling of patissier’s cream, and the third and to my mind best type which is filled with zabaglione. Very morish - but at 450 calories each, they are a definite occasional treat!
Finally I arrived at the door of the Frari, and having paid my €3, went in. Why was I so keen to visit it? Was it to see the divine work of Titan? The sculptor Canova’s monument? The wonderful carving of the Rood Screen? Well, I have a confession to make - it was none of the above. It is one of the other works there that has peculiar fascination for me - the tomb of the Doge Pesaro. Placed next to the Canova monument, it is truly hideous and vile. There are evil looking negroid figures acting as supporting pillars [these were different times] emaciated skeletons emerging from the walls, and in the middle, a tiny sculpture of the Doge himself. What he had done to deserve such a monument is not clear - he only reigned for a year in the 1600s.
Having of course renewed my acquaintance with the other works in the church, including the beautiful Titan altarpiece, I left the church, and thought for a little while that might go to look at the works of Tintoretto in the Scuola di San Rocco as well, but I had seen them a couple of times before, and to be honest, I didn’t want to spend €10 on seeing them again. Then my attention was captured by a far more unique sight - a female gondolier; I had read about her but forgotten her existence until i saw her unloading some passengers who looked quite happy about their experience. Is that the last bastion to be breached by the monstrous regiment?
I had not intended to do any shopping but I had noticed in the little square by the Scuola a little shop of traditional appearance and in the window I spotted a very nice scarf that I thought DH might like. Then another customer, a french lady, was looking at aprons and there was a fun one with a map of Italy and some recipes printed on it which would be perfect for DS. Even better the assistant indulged my desire to speak italian, and whilst he swapped between italian, french and some english, we were able to enjoy a nice chat.
Then clutching my purchases, I tore myself away, and made my way as best I could to the San Tomà vaporetto stop, which was really quite difficult to find, but I got there in the end. My stop was the next one, so once the vaporetto arrived I was there in no time and instead of going back to the apartment [and my homework] I decided to go for a walk around my area and to try to buy some milk, so I could have a cup of tea without having to use my hostess’s and water. Straight away I was plunged into a labyrinth of canals and calle - I particularly liked the one which was called “calle dei avoccati” [yes, they got it wrong again, bvl!] As well as the usual bars and restaurants there were some especially lovely glass shops in this area; I really coveted some water glasses that I took a photo of, but at €106 each, I could not afford even one of them. Just as well as I couldn’t have carried them in my luggage.
Eventually I found a shop with some water, and they told me that I could buy some milk in a shop in a street off the next campo, and amazingly, they were right! So loaded down a bit by now, I navigated my way back to the apartment and lugged it all up those dratted steps. I had lots of time before I was due to meet Caroline and Philip, and I was gasping for a cup of tea so you will have to read about our GTG in the next episode.
Feb 18th, 2015, 03:06 PM
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