LoveItaly

Oh tuscanlifeedit, my post certainly did not mean to insult, and if it did I humbly apologies.

What I was trying to get across, in a stumbling way obviously, is that so many first time visitors worry so much. And bless people that want to do things properly in any country they visit.

I was trying to convey, here are some customs (I will not use the word rules) that are in Italy. I then tried to reassure if they go with kindness, politness and respect they will be well received. I then (stupidly perhaps) mentioned that some of the worst offenders I know of are Italian Americans.

Now does this mean all? Of course not. But I am sad to say that I have heard stories (bragging really), seen photos etc. of people here in CA that are of Italian descent that go back to their parents homeland with no respect whatsoever. I would have died of shame if I had been with them. And have been invited, but gracefully declined.

And have many Italian friends that travel to Italy that do so with dignity and care. As obviously you do.

Again, I did not mean to give offense, and since I did my apology.

LoveItaly

Hello all, I went back and reread my post about Italian Americans. It is my post of January 14th, at 10:23pm. I did not say all Italians born in America I said I had friends -- and it is true. They made me cringe when they shared their stories and showed me photos. They made my husband cringe too. When I say friends I guess I should say people I have know since when I was in school. They pretend to live the Italian life here in N.CA. They do not. They live in a little dream world so to speak. Their Italian is terrible - their food is mock Italian cooking etc. They mentally think of Italy as back in the 1930's because they only know the stories that their parents or grandparents have told them. They do not know the Italy of today. And their one or two visits to their extended families in Italy has been in a big group where they expected to impress and wow the Italians with their money and so called sophistication etc. And IMHO made complete fools of themselves.

I hope I have been able to explain this properly. If not, again I apologize.

cmt

What did they do, if you feel it's appropriate to tell? (I think I know, or hear of, people like that.)

kismetchimera

I cant believe the way this thread is going...I have lived in many countries of the world and found that basically people are all the same.
I have had good experiences and bad ones in many places, but I did not whine about it, or singled out a certain country either.
people are people, some are nice, generous, kind and some are nasty, loud, miserable, and like the French say: C'Est La Vie, and dont worry about it.

cmt

For whatever it's worth, I'm moderately touchy and very intolerant of ethnic slurs, but I wasn't offended. (But I am curious about what these people actually did.)

cmt

Dog mother: To answer your question, no, that has never happened to me. It's not worth trying to figure out rationally why you were treated that way, because there probably was no rational reason. You just got stuck with a waiter with a chip on his shoulder about foreigners, or English-speaking foreigners, or Americans, or maybe about all humans. It certainly wasn't behavior typical of Italians or of waiters, but you got stuck with a weirdo. Sometimes one just gets flucked by the fluctuations of life.

LoveItaly

cmt, what did they do? Tried to get into the Vatican with shorts and sleevless Tshirts.

Got roaring drunk and fell in the Trevi fountain.

Drove into the extended families small villages with items such as coffee, sugar and towels etc "because we knew they had nothing" - oh right!

Wearing shorts and sleevless Tshirts to top restaurants and being insultated that they were not welcomed.

Where they did settle into eat they yelled at the top of their lungs to each other, drank and got drunk and then were insulted because the "service was not good".

Speaking pidgen (sp?) Italian and then complaining because the Italians did not understand them. And keep in mind their Italian that they do know is dialects.

Oh lets see, trying to barter in very elegant shops as though they were in a bazaar in some third country.

Oh, one jerk tried to give money to his mothers second cousin (or some relation like that) for the beautiful family dinner she prepared for him. And was insulted when she was insulted.

They do not go back to Italy anymore, probably because so many of their extended family members lit candles praying to their favorite saint that they not, LOL.

kathie58

Dog_Mother, if I were you I really would not take offense at the waiters who did not understand your "tovagliolo" request. The most likely explanation is there was something a little off in your pronunciation and they honestly did not know what you were asking for. I always give the benefit of the doubt. When a French waiter once turned on his heel and walked away from my table right in the middle of my placing my order (in French), I just assumed he suddenly remembered a pressing engagement. It's those kinds of memories that keep me going back to Europe year after year ...

cmt

LoveItaly, they certainly made an awful scene. They were NOT "typical" I-A tourists.

You said <<Speaking pidgen (sp?) Italian and then complaining because the Italians did not understand them. And keep in mind their Italian that they do know is dialects.>> This, I heard, IS common (not necessarily the complaining part, though). Cousins and other people whom I met in Sicily and Basilicata told me that many Italian Americans visit the towns speaking a really bad corrupted version of a very old fashioned (early 1900s) version of a strictly local form of the dialect, and that no one, not even the old people, still speaks that way, and it sounds really funny to everyone. They always seem to like the fact that I learned standard Italian in school, and that I speak in an understandable way (though with a lot of concentration and not perfectly), and also try to pick up some dialect words when I can.

Getting drunk is very frowned upon among traditional southern Italians, and especially Sicilians. Your acquaintances who fancy themselves so Italian couldn't have been raised in a very traditional Italian-American way if they get drunk the way you described. The old fashioned way is to drink wine routinely with meals but never to excess. I have the impression that alcoholism is becoming more common in modern Italy, especially in the north and in bigger cities, but in traditional little southern towns, I think it's still considered a disgraceful thing to get drunk.

LoveItaly

Hi cmt, thanks for understanding.

And do keep in mind dear one they were using "their Italian language" in Rome and Venice". As in "mama mia!"

And the strange think is here in the US they never overdrink. They have wine with dinner but do not overdo it.

So over excited about being in Italy - probably. Over hyper is probably a better description.

And they are all good devoted Catholics.
So what was with the "beachwear" when they tried to get into the Vatican. Heaven only knows.

And a side note. Some of their Italian families in Italy I know. They are so beautiful. And not to brag (honest) but we have always been so welcomed and have had the most beautiful visits.

Haven't seen any of these dear people since my DH died as it takes a car to get to the villages. And that is more then I can do. But we exchange Christmas and Easter cards etc. Beautiful families, so dear to my heart.

Again, I do so appreciate people that post here asking questions about customs etc. so that they can have a truly beautiful and relaxing vacation.

And again I would say if one goes to Italy with respect and good manners they will do just fine. And isn't that true no matter where one visits.

Huitres

FYI, the plastic glove rule applies in France as well. God forbid you pick up a peach or an apple sans gloves to examine for bruises, etc. The plastic gloves are usually located near the plastic bags or weighing scale. Basically, what you pick up, you buy! Also, you must weigh your produce on the scale, then print out the price label (kg) and go up to the cash register to pay. It is on the honor system because one could select a different (cheaper per kg) apple than the one(s) purchased. (BTW, this is not always the procedure in small towns where the family owner will just tell you how much for 2 apples and you pay him/her directly).

Don't forget your basic salutations when entering a store, restaurant, business, etc. Always remember a "buon giorno!" "buona sera!" etc. prior to asking about this or that. And of course finishing up with a "grazie" is nice too.

There is no "rule" about cappuccino in the morning.....you can order it from a cafe, restaurant, or coffee bar any time you'd like. I often have one in the morning, then one around 4:00 pm (during a site-seeing break).

On a culinary note, a table of 6 Americans were dining in a restaurant in Monterosso al mare, in the Cinque Terre, and they were trying (expecting, really) to get small plates of olive oil for the table so they could dip their bread in it! They did not speak any Italian and were attempting to ask the waitress to bring some to their table. She did not understand what they meant, so they asked me to ask for them in Italian. When I did, I apologized to her and told her it is often the "custom" in the Italian restaurants in the U.S. to dip bread/focaccia in some olive oil on a small plate then eat it. She frowned at me and refused to get it for them - it was against her gastronomic principles! (Even though the Italians use olive oil generously in their cooking, they would never do something as "unhealthy" as eat olive oil raw like that with bread). My Italian friend here in the States reacted the very same way when I came back and told her about that incident.

Nutella

I don't think I saw this mentioned above - the "rules" about paying the cashier - you're expected to exchange money via the tray on the counter, rather than hand to hand. Also about cashiers, in my experience it causes problems if you try using a relatively large bill for a small purchase (like a 20 for a 2 euro item). And it usually messes them up when I pay with, say 2.02 for a 1.77 purchase in order to get a round number of change, even more than it messes up cashiers at home LOL
But the main thing to remember in Italy is... rules, schmules! My Italian friend had recommended that I take a swim in a certain hot spring down the road. Later that day, he asked me how I enjoyed it. I told him that when I got there, I discovered a big sign that said danger, no admittance, closed, so I turned around. He just laughed and said "Are you going to listen to me or to a sign? This is Italy, you're not supposed to obey the rules!"

francesco_m

Dog Mother-I agree with CMT: you must have met un unpolite waiter, but I have to say you were also facing a difficult word as "tovagliolo" (that should be pronounced something like : "tou-va-eeolo&quot, but the italian "gli" sound, is diffucult for english-speaking, and easily mispronounced (tou-va-GLee-olo). One more reason why the "unkind waiter" thought he had a good reason to give you a mean answer.

Among other words, be carefull of : "gnocchi" (dumplings), "ghiaccio" (ice), "aglio" (garlic), "sogliola" (sole, and so on ;-)

mdtravel

These are all very good and interesting to read. This one sounds much more like preaching than commentary on culture to me though. I saw plenty of intoxicated tourists AND Italians in Rome, Venice and Florence. Perhaps the Italians have not heard it is not the thing to do.

"Getting drunk is not considered the thing to do in Italy. I do not mean to infere it is considered the thing to do in any country but I have seen so many tourist (especially younger ones in groups) drunk, yelling as they go down the street etc. Not a good thing."

francesco_m

One thing about Italian Americans. First of all I have good friends among them, and most of the times I love their attitudes, but I've noticed some (few), tend to come back to Italy, believing they're making a trip through time, (just like in the movie with M.J.Fox, "Back to future&quot,rather than from a country to another in the same year, so they would:
1)Speak the dialect their parents (or grandparents) exported from their little town in Italy when they left(1920, or '30 or whenever). Which is kind of precious for 2005 italians, because with the evolution of the It-language, some of those words have completely disappeared, and these IAs are the only mean of preservation for some old fashioned (and fascinating!) expressions.
2) Would ask me if we have televisions or washing machines, as if they were visiting the same exact country their ancestors left.
3) Would ask dishes at restaurants (like "Spaghetti with meatballs&quot that you'd never find in a restaurant's menu, but that used to be typical as a home made meal of an Italian family of so long ago.
To end my post, again I'm happy I get the chance to meet some of these IA, also because I can look back at our past, and I understand that when they have this "peculiar behavior", they don't really mean to offend.

i_am_kane

Francesco, You made a few interesting comments about IA. When I was growing up listening to my relatives speak in Italian, I had no idea they were speaking an Italian dialet. By the way, none of my friends or relatives ever refer to themselves as Italian-Americans. They simply say they are ITALIAN and PROUD OF IT.

Vowels (a,e,i,o,u) were always droped at the end of a word. For example, they would say mozzarell, apizz. Now that I am (hopefully) learning proper Italian, I am getting over the awkward feeling of pronouncing the vowels at the end of a word. The Italian words are much more beautiful when spoken correctly, but so many "IA" people in my area still speak the old dialet because they are comfortable with it. However, they all understand spoken and written proper Italian.

Even popular singers from the l940's, 50's, 60's sang in dialet: Lou Monte, Louie Prima and even Dean Martin.

As far as modernization in Italy is concerned, would you say it is equal throughout the country? The Mezzogiorno for example?

I visited my ancestral paese, Castelfranco in Miscano, three years ago. Yes, they have power, but there are huge windmills erected on the top of the mountain range to provide power to this small medieval village.

Spaghetti and meatballs! Yes, our family and friends still eat this simple, filling dish with crusty Italian bread.

In 2001, Connecticut was written up in an Associated Press article stating that a recent census showed Connecticut as having the highest percentage of Italian-Americans in the United States. 16.4 percent of Connecticut residents listed Italian as their primary ancestry. This figure does not include people like me, who are "1/2" Italian (one parent, grandparents from Italy). In my case, it is my mother's relatives who emigrated from Italy to the U.S.

Connecticut edged out Rhode Island in this last census, and some R.I.'s seem reluctant to accept the runner-up spot.

It is agonizing waiting until April 2006 to visit Italy again. I love italia.

cmt

MDTravel: I didn’t write the “drunkenness” comment that you find fault with, but I think I know just what L.I. meant when she wrote it. We all take some liberties by making some generalizations to make a point when we post here, because these are just casual posts on a travel forum, not accounts of scholarly research. I have noticed that in bigger cities and in the north, some Italians have picked up “foreign” habits and attitudes re alcohol drinking, while in quieter parts of the south and Sicily, people drink wine with meals, and maybe an after dinner liqueur or herbal bitters, but they don’t drink for the sake of drinking and drunkenness is rare and shameful. I had made a similar comment to L.I.’s, but since it’s more qualified and restricted to people in the south in smaller towns who follow the traditional ways, maybe you will know what I mean, and possibly what L.I. meant as well: <<Getting drunk is very frowned upon among traditional southern Italians, and especially Sicilians. Your acquaintances who fancy themselves so Italian couldn't have been raised in a very traditional Italian-American way if they get drunk the way you described. The old fashioned way is to drink wine routinely with meals but never to excess. I have the impression that alcoholism is becoming more common in modern Italy, especially in the north and in bigger cities, but in traditional little southern towns, I think it's still considered a disgraceful thing to get drunk.>>

I_am_Kane: The vowels aren’t dropped in Sicily. But in Sicilian dialect they are usually different vowels, and, in fact, different words, since the Sicilian language (and its local variations) is different from standard Italian, though closely related, since Italian, and Sicilian, and the other dialects of Italy developed from various local forms of Latin vulgate spoken in different areas. For example, instead of bello/bella, in Sicilian the words would be beddu/bedda, but the vowels, either u or a, are definitely pronounced.

I don’t know whether my family was atypical, but I was aware from a pretty young age that among “Italians” there were different dialects spoken and also “Italian.” My father was US-born, but raised in Sicily, never spoke Italian in the home, except with my maternal grandparents (and Italian visitors and passersby), and spoke absolutely perfect unaccented English. I knew he could speak standard Italian, and also Sicilian, and also understand various other southern dialects, and also tell a long narrative joke in Venetian dialect, though I don’t know how he learned that. My maternal grandmother spoke mainly the dialect of Basilicata, with a little smattering of other southern dialects spoken by neighbors and co-workers when she came to the US, plus a little Yiddish spoken by her fellow seamstresses when she used to work in a garment factory. I think my grandfather may have switched off speaking Calabrese dialect, and Italian, and some generic southern way of speaking that immigrants had developed when Italians from various places lived closely in NYC neighborhoods in the early 20th century. But I think at least from the time that I was 7 or 8 I knew that there were different ways of speaking among Italians. My mother, American-born, could communicate adequately with any southerner, but acknowledged that she was speaking what she called a “bastardized” Italian, made up of Lucano dialect, and bits of other southern dialects learned from neighbors in the tenements when she was a child, and some Italian that she’d learned, but not that well, in college. She never claimed that she was speaking standard Italian. When I was really young—around 3 years old—I had the notion that I couldn’t be an American until I learned a foreign language. In my little brain, my grandparents were “Italian,” my parents, who could bridge both cultures, were “American,” and I, as a little child who couldn’t speak Italian, was still just “English,” but would grow up to be “American” when I learned Italian and other languages. Wrong, but I like that concept of Americanism, in a way.

i_am_kane

cmt, Very interesting about your family's use of the Italian language. My Italian tutor has explained to me all of what you are saying. I not only receive Italian lessons, but also Italian history and Italian cultural lessons from her.

You mention your grandfather lived in NYC neighborhoods in the early 20th Century, which influenced his style of speaking Italian. That makes a lot of sense in a large city. Connecticut is next-door to NYC, but the type of housing was very different.

From what I can deduce, the Italian immigrants in Connecticut tended to find housing in a neighborhood where they were all from the same Italian region, town or village. For instance I never met a family from Abruzzi, Marche, Lazio, Puglie. The immigrants from these regions were certainly here, but my family didn't associate with them. Around here, the immigrants from Campania were mostly housed in one section of Bridgeport. They lived, worked, worshiped and socialized within their "new" American community.

However,the Italian clubs started to form, and again, they were named after towns or regions from Italy, i.e. Castelfrancese Society, Marchegiana Society, Roma Society. They were frequented by the immigrants from those regions.

Enough of that..I could go on forever,but this discussion was about the Rules of Italy, and we should get back to that subject.

cmt

<<but this discussion was about the Rules of Italy, and we should get back to that subject.>>

We're just giving a demo of the Italian way: rules are meant to be broken, and the converstion never ends.

I find that custom of immigrants from a particular region clustering in certain neighborhoods in the suburbs very interesting. (Different from NYC and some other boig cities, where immigrants from various places lived all pressed closely together in the tenements). In Princeton, NJ, there were a lot of early 20th c. Italian immigrants from the little town or Pettoranello (near Isernia). They were stone masons for the university and for the wealthy people with big estate, with stone walls and statues. Then later in the 20th century, more people from Pettoranello came to this country and moved to nearby towns and to Trenton, which already had a lot of Italians. In some nearby towns, there can be an average street, in an ethnically mixed, mostly not foreign, neighborhood, where there happen to be several Italian-born people, ALL from Pettoranello. Princeton, NJ, and Pettoranello (in Abruzzi-Molise region) are sister cities. There's a Pettoranello park in Princeton where there are concerts and plays performed, the high school students from each town had exchange visits and school band and choir trips, etc.

mdtravel

Perhaps it would be better to focus on the yelling as they walk down the street. Again, saw plenty of drunk Italians (young and old and very old) but all were well behaved. At the same time, saying that is not the thing to do there implies, to me at least, that it is considered the thing to do here. Do I sometimes drink too much? Yes. Do I think it gives license to be disorderly? Nope.