The Queen's English
Sep 6th, 2016, 09:18 AM
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Sep 6th, 2016, 09:32 AM
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We speak English.
Foreigners speak dialects.
"Queen's English" is generally used to describe the accent, rather than the vocabulary and grammar, most widely believed to be acceptable. That's not the pronunciation used by the Queen (which has constantly changed over the past 90 years) or by her son (which has always been weird) but by major BBC speakers: above all, John Humphrys and Fiona Bruce.
The best written guide to modern written English is The Economist style guide. By definition, there can be no formal guide to spoken English (absurdities like formal grammar are as unEnglish as dress codes in a Christian church are heretical), but practically any edition of the Today programme on BBC Radio 4 (available worldwide on IPlayer) offers a remarkably accurate summary to how English is currently spoken.
Foreigners speak dialects.
"Queen's English" is generally used to describe the accent, rather than the vocabulary and grammar, most widely believed to be acceptable. That's not the pronunciation used by the Queen (which has constantly changed over the past 90 years) or by her son (which has always been weird) but by major BBC speakers: above all, John Humphrys and Fiona Bruce.
The best written guide to modern written English is The Economist style guide. By definition, there can be no formal guide to spoken English (absurdities like formal grammar are as unEnglish as dress codes in a Christian church are heretical), but practically any edition of the Today programme on BBC Radio 4 (available worldwide on IPlayer) offers a remarkably accurate summary to how English is currently spoken.
Sep 6th, 2016, 09:53 AM
#5
I suppose that RP ["Received Pronunciation", aka BBC english] might be thought to be the most widely spoken as you will hear it more or less everywhere in the UK, along with local accent/s and the varied accents of incomers to that area.
For example, here in Cornwall you will hear cornish accents, [interspersed with dialect words and phrases], RP, quite a lot of Brummie accents as it's a popular place to relocate to for midlanders, and at least one Geordie, in the person of our chimney sweep who has been here for 30 years at least and still sounds as he did when he left Newcastle.
Just as a matter of interest, why do you ask, nananna915?
For example, here in Cornwall you will hear cornish accents, [interspersed with dialect words and phrases], RP, quite a lot of Brummie accents as it's a popular place to relocate to for midlanders, and at least one Geordie, in the person of our chimney sweep who has been here for 30 years at least and still sounds as he did when he left Newcastle.
Just as a matter of interest, why do you ask, nananna915?
Sep 6th, 2016, 10:14 AM
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When I lived there with my British "Practice Wife" I was astounded by her ability to instantly place a person by their accent. I could tell no discernible difference in the language, but she could often place a person's birthplace and/or educational institution exactly. While that amazed me, it also appalled me to see that identification used to profile a person's worth. She and her family's poorly hidden sneers at someone from an industrial, northern, or poorer region, or without a "Public School" education offended me as much as racial profiling does in the US.
Of course some of the regional accents are hard to miss, even for a Yank. On a trip to Devon with a lady friend who had been raised there she struck up a conversation with a fellow Devonshire chap at the bar. I listened closely, but could not understand what they were talking about.
Of course some of the regional accents are hard to miss, even for a Yank. On a trip to Devon with a lady friend who had been raised there she struck up a conversation with a fellow Devonshire chap at the bar. I listened closely, but could not understand what they were talking about.
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Sep 6th, 2016, 10:33 AM
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<i>When I lived there with my British "Practice Wife" I was astounded by her ability to instantly place a person by their accent.</i>
Henrietta Higgins?
<i>I suppose that RP ["Received Pronunciation", aka BBC english] might be thought to be the most widely spoken as you will hear it more or less everywhere in the UK,</i>
Hardly, RP is spoken by a few percent at the most
Henrietta Higgins?
<i>I suppose that RP ["Received Pronunciation", aka BBC english] might be thought to be the most widely spoken as you will hear it more or less everywhere in the UK,</i>
Hardly, RP is spoken by a few percent at the most
Sep 6th, 2016, 12:21 PM
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Someone who isn't obviously likely to be familiar with any given local dialect isn't therefore likely to find someone speaking it to them, even if that person might speak to their friends and family in what an outsider would consider a strong dialect. But they might well notice an accent and intonation in broadly standard English that still sounds quite strong to them.
Here's a famous old news clip of a man protesting about unemployment in Strabane in Northern Ireland: but he's actually speaking more or less standard English (just VERY fast!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhGbpatmplQ
If you're asking where you're more likely to hear vocabulary you wouldn't hear across the whole country, I'd guess you'd have to go to Scotland, where a fair few words from old Scots are surviving.
If you're asking which accent is likely to be the most commonly heard, my guess is what is now called "estuary", which has features that someone trained in old-school RP el-o-cu-tion would consider a bit common (slack diphthong vowels that might come from either side of the Thames estuary or from the southern Midlands, some over-aspirated T sounds mixed with glottal stops, the odd dropped "g" in "-ing" words), but on a base not too far from RP.
Here's a famous old news clip of a man protesting about unemployment in Strabane in Northern Ireland: but he's actually speaking more or less standard English (just VERY fast!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhGbpatmplQ
If you're asking where you're more likely to hear vocabulary you wouldn't hear across the whole country, I'd guess you'd have to go to Scotland, where a fair few words from old Scots are surviving.
If you're asking which accent is likely to be the most commonly heard, my guess is what is now called "estuary", which has features that someone trained in old-school RP el-o-cu-tion would consider a bit common (slack diphthong vowels that might come from either side of the Thames estuary or from the southern Midlands, some over-aspirated T sounds mixed with glottal stops, the odd dropped "g" in "-ing" words), but on a base not too far from RP.
Sep 6th, 2016, 12:34 PM
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I think estuary and neo-cockney (among the young) are both pretty common, especially among the educated who don't want to appear to be Public School boys, even when they are.
What nukesafe writes rings very true to me.
What nukesafe writes rings very true to me.
Sep 6th, 2016, 12:37 PM
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>>If you're asking which accent is likely to be the most commonly heard, my guess is what is now called "estuary", which has features that someone trained in old-school RP el-o-cu-tion would consider a bit common
Even to an American it sounds a bit common, especially the dropped Ts and in' endings.
Whatever is up with Adele, is her speech a put-on or is it typical of Tottenham?
Even to an American it sounds a bit common, especially the dropped Ts and in' endings.
Whatever is up with Adele, is her speech a put-on or is it typical of Tottenham?
Sep 6th, 2016, 12:56 PM
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When I moved to Edinburgh from the other side of the border I used to watch "Chewin' the Fat". Many times I had to put subtitles on to understand what was being said.
Much of it however is getting used to the cadence within the speech, like tuning in of a radio
Much of it however is getting used to the cadence within the speech, like tuning in of a radio
Sep 6th, 2016, 01:55 PM
#16
Hardly, RP is spoken by a few percent at the most>>
you may be right of course, but my point is that it is spoken by a number of people everywhere, and those numbers of people add up.
<<Of course some of the regional accents are hard to miss, even for a Yank. On a trip to Devon with a lady friend who had been raised there she struck up a conversation with a fellow Devonshire chap at the bar. I listened closely, but could not understand what they were talking about.>>
it's not just Yanks who have trouble, nukesafe. when we first moved to Cornwall about 20 years ago, I found some people incomprehensible; it took me about 5 years to understand my neighbour and the local butcher for example, and recently a lot of viewers of BBC's Jamaica Inn were complaining that they couldn't understand the cornish accents, whereas we had no problem at all!
you may be right of course, but my point is that it is spoken by a number of people everywhere, and those numbers of people add up.
<<Of course some of the regional accents are hard to miss, even for a Yank. On a trip to Devon with a lady friend who had been raised there she struck up a conversation with a fellow Devonshire chap at the bar. I listened closely, but could not understand what they were talking about.>>
it's not just Yanks who have trouble, nukesafe. when we first moved to Cornwall about 20 years ago, I found some people incomprehensible; it took me about 5 years to understand my neighbour and the local butcher for example, and recently a lot of viewers of BBC's Jamaica Inn were complaining that they couldn't understand the cornish accents, whereas we had no problem at all!
Sep 6th, 2016, 02:01 PM
#17
talking about Estuary english, it's interesting to listen to the progression of accents, which can change very quickly - you have only to listen to what has happened to the voice of James Taylor, one time english cricketer who had to retire very early due to illness; he has been catapulted into broadcasting and has gone from northern Estuary to RP in a matter of weeks.
"Mockney" I find particularly irritating - whenever I listen to Ed Milliband or Sadiq Kahn, I want to scream at them to pronounce their words properly because all the dropping of Hs and Tanti saluti sounds so false coming from them.
"Mockney" I find particularly irritating - whenever I listen to Ed Milliband or Sadiq Kahn, I want to scream at them to pronounce their words properly because all the dropping of Hs and Tanti saluti sounds so false coming from them.
Sep 6th, 2016, 11:32 PM
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>>"Mockney" I find particularly irritating - whenever I listen to Ed Milliband or Sadiq Kahn, I want to scream<<
Ed Miliband (educated at a comprehensive in Chalk Farm and then Oxford, parents continental emigré intellectuals in Hampstead): maybe.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting born and bred, local comprehensive and London Metropolitan, parents a bus-driver and seamstress immgrated from Pakistan): not so much.
Ed Miliband (educated at a comprehensive in Chalk Farm and then Oxford, parents continental emigré intellectuals in Hampstead): maybe.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting born and bred, local comprehensive and London Metropolitan, parents a bus-driver and seamstress immgrated from Pakistan): not so much.
